*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

**Paul in NZ** · 2nd February 2007, 07:57

Well for starters - at least we live in a country where these issues can be discussed openly and ideas floated without the secret Police kicking in the door and.... (shit - whats that knocking at the door?)

Seriously...

Last 3 years #3 daughter has been working towards a degree in early childhood etc and she has always had a passion for all things Maori despite being the weediest, whitest kid in her schools Kapa haka group. Over the last 3 years I have acted as proof reader and sounding board for her (and her sister) during our commutes into town. Frankly it's made me a better person (if you think I'm a wanker now you should have seen me then) and because of the little i have gleaned I have improved my reading to some of the 'histories' and other learned works.

I now have the belief that the renaissance in Maori cultural activities stemming from the social upheavals in the 60's / 70's has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened in this country. While 'some' Maori are exploiting the situation for their own personal gain I believe that giving a large part of the population a power base and respect is going to make us all better off. The problem is going to be - where do we stop and where are the boundaries?

I doubt I'm not clever enough to figure that out when presented with an option BUT flying a flag off a bridge seems a pretty small thing. I believe most Maori do see themselves as Kiwis and are proud of it. frankly I'm a little envious of the ethnic background they can tap into while all I have is boofy old motorbikes and... erm.. hang on....

Paul N - Pale - Oily - black handed and proud of it..

**doc** · 2nd February 2007, 07:59

Originally Posted by Clivoris

Here we go...
I believe that New Zealand is the best country in the world, the way it is, right now. I am white. I am Maori. I am Pakeha. I am a New Zealander.

You sad sad puppy you need real help and you ride an Italian bike.I bet the cicarda's are driving you really nuts at the moment.

**Colapop** · 2nd February 2007, 08:07

Tariana Turia - from the news this morning (Feb brings them all out!!)

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Excuse me but WTF?!? Now 'The Man' (the government) is bringing in immigrants to keep Maori down? Are we building another great railway massa? She needs to get a reality check and stop trying to be a black man. This is the type of person that would lead the Maori people???

**jrandom** · 2nd February 2007, 08:42

Originally Posted by Colapop

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Well, she's probably right...

I shan't contribute substantially to this discussion; I'd only be me-tooing Ixion.

**Jimmy B** · 2nd February 2007, 09:25

I always found this interesting given if the original inhabitants of NZ were in fact of non Maori origin how this would effect the Treaty or any claim of ownership by a poeple to settled by conquest. Conspiracy or truth??

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/embargo_saga.html

**Indiana_Jones** · 2nd February 2007, 09:35

Love it how the national front said if the Maori's get that flag up, they want their flag up too....

they should dump their current one and get for old school. I'll get one ready for them lol

-Indy

**ManDownUnder** · 2nd February 2007, 09:44

us-them
us-them
us-them

*yawn*

what mack said. ... *next*

**bull** · 2nd February 2007, 09:55

Originally Posted by Colapop

Tariana Turia - from the news this morning (Feb brings them all out!!)

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Excuse me but WTF?!? Now 'The Man' (the government) is bringing in immigrants to keep Maori down? Are we building another great railway massa? She needs to get a reality check and stop trying to be a black man. This is the type of person that would lead the Maori people???

Why is it that we decide this part of news has been put across truthfully, we all know the media are full of shit and are about getting stories out there to cause controversy.

Im a maori new zealander, even tho im only part maori. At school we were taught all about the founding of this country in a class called english which was a compulsary class. In turn i had to choose the maori option to get a maori perspective of the same history. Wouldnt it be fantastic if maori was compulsary at school also as then we could head down the right path to a unified New Zealand.

**candor** · 2nd February 2007, 09:58

Who was here first is a moot point - many maori admit the redheads were here first and trace their ancestry to the group they absorbed.

But this thing about a land being gained by conquest. What! It is so untrue. The crown had no interest in NZ and fought hard the Maoris repeated requests for a treaty and more settlement and outsiders to send someone to control the rabble element.

Unfortunately the property speculators Wakefield clan forced the crowns hand to get an immigration deal sorted as they went against the House of Parliaments negative replies to several requests they had made to export folk and they just went and put damn settlers on their ships regardless.

Diplomats were then sent out to stop a mess from happening as Britain was at the time under fire for bad colonising practise elsewhere (one reason they had been opposed to settling). The result was a the treaty. This allowed settlers to come from 1840 and rule themselves in settler towns while Maori carried on business as usual. There was only a small trickle till around the 1860s from memory.

Then and only then did some extremely bad behaviour crop up as Russell who founded the BNZ to bankroll himself began shit stirring. This resulted in the "wars" which led to some land confiscations - he was the prime bidder at the auctions and once enriched from Waikato the creme de la creme he pissed off to NSW.

Very few people died from combat in these so called "wars" in which a mercenary militia from Oz (not typical settlers conscripted or anything) were often paid with a land parcel- like a couple of hundred total lives lost from memory with more casualties on the pakeha side.

They were not true wars of conquest that took a country. It was more like some flare ups over disputes that were used to justify a couple of major thefts by the settlers governors/govt. People were shunted off their land in some discreet flare ups is all - no great war or V day or anything, just illicit regional land grabs which are the substance of treaty claims.

England was not smiling on this and asked for troops to come home but Governor went against direct orders and persisted bullying at times. No official war - it was terrorism really. Sovereignty was not 'officially' changed hands at this time and the lions share of land (one indicator of who holds sovereignty) remained in Maori hands till ?1900 approx.

But come the 1880s more trouble which had its roots in earlier flare ups and a large influx which did not find the prime land used as carrots to get them out here readily available. They had payed for land upfront which sellers misrepresented as having been bought by them many occasions. Led to a few conflicts andd stand offs. At that point the first maori were imprisoned in the pakeha system - the ones taken from parihaka and put in caves in Dunedin. From that point on Maori slipped in the net of the pakeha system by default and pakeha bully boy tactics.

Effective soverignty transfer or a switch in the balance of power only came about by a gradual process and conquest by battle force was not a part of that at all. Land was mostly stolen by the pen ie Europeans wrote about 170 laws to land strip eg if you don't get all the tribe to do a cartwheel in Wellington and sign their nanas name upside down then that block becomes the Crowns. Similar to how pakeha land can be taken on excuse of public works / roads etc. Such powers were majorly abused but selectively against Maori "Ooh - this town needs a golf course....", then necxt thing council sells golf course for a song to a councillor - get the picture.

Most of the land was not stripped until very late and this went on till the 1960s at a great rate. One thing that stunned me was to see the maps showing progressive loss of land and how late much of this occurred - very recent in fact.

Rubbing their noses in it very much was the conversion of Maori by the pakeha farming breed to a race of indigent labourers. My uncles upbringing was typical - the family of 17 moved about as agricultural seasonal farm labourers, education is disrupted in this lifestyle but that was not sen a impt fopr Maori raised in the 50 / 60s as "they're best with their hands".

The nomadic lifestyle in which tribal links were one constant, the lack of education - the exhaustion of parents who drowned their woes with alcohol,
the cramped conditions leading to incest etc - these stories are the background to European prospering. Took the land by stealth with laws that alienated the owners slowly but steadily then got the prior owners to be cheap labour.

Maori had rights in courts to appeal etc but funnily enough courts were so biased that for example some families were barred from laying commplaints - equal rights - TUI!

The natural outcome was gang networks which started as social 'clubs' but against this background naturally progressed to the negativity, hostility and society undermining business ventures as they too wanted a slice of the cake that many unspoken rules in apartheid racist NZ kept them from accessing.

You say NZ is not apartheid. Then why did the Govt build South Auckland to house factory workers when it needed Labour and simultaneously force poor rural maori out of their home areas by passing more laws in the 1970s that taxed them hard for staying put - and stripped the land they huddled on!

AS BULL SAYS THERE ARE 2 HISTORIES HERE THAT DON'T YET AGREE, I TRY TO NAVIGATE A MIDDLE PATH

**Finn** · 2nd February 2007, 10:08

All this shit has nothing to do with culture or maori sovereignty. It's about cash and nothing else. It's an industry and a very good one at that. What other industry sits on their arse, contributes nothing and ruins the country while making HUGE profits? Well okay, apart from Telecom then.

**The_Dover** · 2nd February 2007, 10:16

Originally Posted by Finn

All this shit has nothing to do with culture or maori sovereignty. It's about cash and nothing else. It's an industry and a very good one at that. What other industry sits on their arse, contributes nothing and ruins the country while making HUGE profits? Well okay, apart from Telecom then.

I could think of another one

**Ixion** · 2nd February 2007, 10:30

..
But come the 1880s more trouble which had its roots in earlier flare ups and a large influx which did not find the prime land used as carrots to get them out here readily available. They had payed for land upfront which sellers misrepresented as having been bought by them many occasions. Led to a few conflicts andd stand offs. At that point the first maori were imprisoned in the pakeha system - the ones taken from parihaka and put in caves in Dunedin. From that point on Maori slipped in the net of the pakeha system by default and pakeha bully boy tactics.
..

Cultural cringe, much? Would you have us believe that all Maoris were helpness "natives" ? I can tell you that many Maoris in the 19th century (and the 20th) did not "slip into the net of the Pakeha system by default". They grabbed the opportunity for a better life with both hands and went roaring after it. And reckoned they got a damn good deal. No more drafty whare - decent house instead. No more subsistance diet - roast lamb and new potatos instead. Got decent jobs, made heaps of money trading with the gullible white men, sent the kids to school , paid off the mortgage, sent the grandkids to university. There's millions such Kiwis, their ancestors weren't dummies. Nobody exploited them, noone forced them into the "pakeha system". They saw a way of life that was a damn sight better than they had, or that their ancestors had, and they had the good sense and gumption to grab the opportunity.

As for "land being stolen by the pen" and "battle having nothing to do with it". What nonsense. 19th Century maoris weren't such wimps. My ancestors fought in those Waikato wars (and the earlier ones up North) , on both sides. And I can tell you for a fact that the Gods of battle decided most of the issues.

The Maoris whining today are the losers who want to blame everybody but themselves for their inability to make a go of things. Maoris are perfectly capable of making a decent life for themselves and their kids. They don't need a lot of patronising apologists claiming that theyve been "sucked into the Pakeha system" , and that the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary Kiwis, the same as everyone else.

**frogfeaturesFZR** · 2nd February 2007, 10:33

Well said Colapop. Many ethnic groups, but one nationality.

**ghost** · 2nd February 2007, 10:34

Originally Posted by candor

Very few people died from combat in these so called "wars" in which a mercenary militia from Oz (not typical settlers conscripted or anything) were often paid with a land parcel- like a couple of hundred total lives lost from memory with more casualties on the pakeha side.

They were not true wars of conquest that took a country. It was more like some flare ups over disputes that were used to justify a couple of major thefts by the settlers governors/govt. People were shunted off their land in some discreet flare ups is all - no great war or V day or anything, just illicit regional land grabs which are the substance of treaty claims.

England was not smiling on this and asked for troops to come home but Governor went against direct orders and persisted bullying at times. No official war - it was terrorism really. Sovereignty was not 'officially' changed hands at this time and the lions share of land (one indicator of who holds sovereignty) remained in Maori hands till ?1900 approx.

Come on fella tell the whole truth about the land wars........ It wasnt all about British troops and the goverments Armed Constabulary, most of the fighting in the later stages was done between tribes for and against the goverment of the day. Not to deny wrong doings on either side but there was a lot more to it that just the white settlers against the brown tribes. Some of the best goverment troops (and most persistent) were from the various tribes around the country side, who for their own reasons waged a very effective campain throughout middle and lower north island.

This unfortunatly is slowly being written out of the history of New Zealand. Most people with never know the truth, just some quazi made up corperate money making truth used to extract as much money and shame as possible. Real pity to cos theres some pretty interesting stuff that happened in this little country.....