*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[candor]

Isn't it a mix Ixion.
Acted on by historic forces to a great degree and were also active in playing a role? Do you denty the underclass exists and is largely Maori? So then, a great deal of Maori are not doing great - must be a reason for that. Two choices - inferior or ..... odds have been stacked against. Exceptions to the rule like those doing bloody well can not negate the existence of 'issues' that need looking at.

Ghost I lack in depth knowledge of those battles as things military do not interes me - I'm not a guy! That is just the overview I've gathered.

Finn - you seem unable to analyse any subject outside the parameters of a business and money related perspective. Tell me - how are kohanga reo about making money? So... if the treaty industry is about money (I know it is about greed along with reparation for some individuals too) are you happy that capitalist values have been so well absorbed by the natives then?

[COP_B8]

As a University student I am continually fighting to get through to limited entry courses which are restricted in entry to ensure only those capable of performing at a high standard are submitted through, last year this was a B+ average mark......unless you are fortunate enough to have a portion of maori in you in which case you can fall into the 10% of students that are automatically submitted through. One of my friends basically put no effort in and said that he did not need to as he could get through under this entry.
If this is not segregation I dont know what is, not only that but if joe public sought the services of a professional (lawyer, doctor etc...) surely they would want to know that they are seeing someone that worked hard to get there and know what they are doing. not someone that scraped through on 50% passes......

I know this is only one example, but my point is that there are so many examples similar to this in which maori are given additional oppurtunities or incentives above non maori. These oppurtunities are created under the heading of assisting maori or correct the wrongs of the past (of which no one that apparently commited these wrongs is still alive today) but only create further division amongst races.

So why is it happening? The Bill of Rights is one of many pieces of legislation that was created with the "Principles of the Treaty" reference in it, The Treaty of Waitangi is pretty much meaningless as a document until it is incorporated into legislation, something which has never been done except by statements like everything within this act must adhere to the principles of the treaty of waitangi. as a result of this a document that was already completely ambiguous has now created many pieces of legislation that have to abide by it, and a certain few of the population now feed on this to profit from it, and New Zealand as a whole has grown so politically correct that no one will stand up to it, for doing so would mean that you are racist.

Sovereignity:
3. Complete independence and self-government.
4. A territory existing as an independent state

Just for the sake of argument A treaty is an agreement between two sovereign states, The Treaty of Waitaingi was between the English and the Maori, however....at the time (1840's) there was no form of national self government amongst Maori, or complete independence, it was many tribes fighting amongst themselves, a form of government was tried to be established between the Northern Tribes however this fell apart rapidly. thus if the maori did not hold sovereignity over New Zealand the treaty is not valid.............

[The_Dover]

Isn't it a mix Ixion.
Acted on by historic forces to a great degree and were also active in playing a role? Do you denty the underclass exists and is largely Maori? So then, a great deal of Maori are not doing great - must be a reason for that.

do you know what a porch monkey is?

Tell me - how are kohanga reo about making money? So... if the treaty industry is about money (I know it is about greed along with reparation for some individuals too) are you happy that capitalist values have been so well absorbed by the natives then?

can you answer me this please, if you know about kanga roos.

when the legislation which comes in to mean that from next year only those with a certain level of qualification (diploma in early childhood education i think) can work in childcare centres then will this same rule apply to kanga roos? or do the "natives" again get special exemptions?

[Indiana_Jones]

The Maori's were hardly a peace loving race, and were quite happy to come to NZ, crack open the other people's skulls open, then cracked their own skulls for a while. Then a bigger tribe cam along and cracked their skulls around abit.

I just don't see why we all can't just get on with life. It's history. Seeing that I'm British I still want my war reperations from the fucking huns then!, and compinsation from the French, Romans, vikings......

Can't we look forward instead of back?

Edit: I want us to become a republic, then the treaty would be null and viod, that's why the Maori's would never want that to happen

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

at the time (1840's) there was no form of national self government amongst Maori, or complete independence, it was many tribes fighting amongst themselves, a form of government was tried to be established between the Northern Tribes however this fell apart rapidly. thus if the maori did not hold sovereignity over New Zealand the treaty is not valid.............

errrr - is that true (open question - I don't know personally..) but if so... the Treaty is an agreement between a nationwide group of disparate leaders (which arguably constitutes Maoridom), and the Queen.

Get Liz over here to sort this...

[MisterD]

Can't we look forward instead of back?

It seems that you can't...it's not the 1980s anymore Indy.

[Indiana_Jones]

It seems that you can't...it's not the 1980s anymore Indy.

yea, but I'm not demanding money from you because of my interest lol

-Indy

[MisterD]

yea, but I'm not demanding money from you because of my interest lol

-Indy

Free 80s film marathon round at Indy's place everyone!

[ghost]

Ghost I lack in depth knowledge of those battles as things military do not interes me - I'm not a guy! That is just the overview I've gathered.

Must have missed my point, its not just about military knowledge or being a guy, its more about the lack of factual history being passed through the generations. Also trying to get the spotlight off the distracting argument of who had conflicts with who but the over all effect of colonisation of this country by europeans, maori, mori ori, celts, phonician....... and who is entilted to what. Where I grew up everyone had access to that same oppurtunities and education, but different people have definately(cant spell) ended up in different parts of the world at various social levels. In my opinion most of todays social issues is less to do with discrimination and more with the welfare system with allows people to sell their morals and ethics (culture?) for a relativly easy life style of low self responsibility..... now we could argue all day about this, but the origional thread is about a flag and my opinion on that one is if they what to fly a flag they should go for the confederate chief flag, but then that one also doesnt repesent all tribes aye.....

[Ixion]

Candor, you're still missing the point. You can't separate out a small stratum of modern society and say "Ohh -- look Maoris! Poor things, they must be discriminated against".

200 odd years ago, yes, there WERE two distinct groups Maoris and Brits. (I hate that pakeha word). Maoris here, Brits over there.

Maoris living a (short) ratshit life of poverty hunger and disease (don't give me that Rosseauian crap about a pre treaty earthly paradise). The way their ancestors had always lived . With no hope of it ever being any better. The Brits living a (short) ratshit life of poverty hunger and disease . But knowing that with a bit of work and technology they could live an immeasurably better life.

But hey, something started happening. Lots of the Maoris (the ones with a bit of sense and gumption), looked at how the Brits did things and said "Hey, this looks a better deal, let's grab some of it, Bugger this grubbing about growing kumeras". So they did. And prospered. And the Brits (enough of them - there were the usual bigots) were happy to go along with this.

And after a hundred years or so, guess what. We don't HAVE two separate groups , Maori and Brits, anymore. We just have one - Kiwis. A bit of Maori, a bit of Brit, some black some white, something from both sides. And the Kiwis whose ancestors were Maoris (which is a lot) don't think it necessary to make a song and dance about that fact. Any more than the ones whose ancestors were Brits. The ones with Maori ancestry remember that and are proud of it. As I am. Just as I'm proud of my Spanish forebears. And the Poms. And the Scotch (don't get me started!).

Yes, we do have an underclass. And people with Maori bloodlines are over represented. That's not cos "the odds are stacked against them" That's Darwinism at work. The Maoris a hundred years ago that had gumption, intelligence and weren't afraid of work, got off their chuffs and left the pa . And turned into Kiwis.

The ones who stayed behind, and kept staying behind for two hundred years were the losers. And now, surprisingly, gee, the losers are overrepresented in the "underclass". Why aren't there more Brits in the Underclass? Obvious - because the Brit losers never got here. It look gumption , courage , intelligence and work ethic for a Brit 200 years ago to get off his chuff, get on a ship and head out to a new life at the other end of the world. The losers didn't. They stayed home. Just as it took gumption , courage , intelligence and work ethic for a Maori 200 years ago to get off his chuff, get off the marae and head out to a new life in a different world. The losers didn't . They stayed behind. So the Maori losers end up in Otara. The Brit losers are still back in Pomgolia.

BTW , the process is still happening. The losers ended up in Otara. But sometimes the kids have what the parents didn't. They get out of Otara. Or at least make sure THEIR kids get the education, the job, and get out. If we REALLY want to eliminate that underclass , that's what needs doing. make it easier for the ones who have got what it takes to get out (and mostly, ALL it takes is the determination to do so) .

There is NOTHING makes me madder than seeing parents stuck in Otara, or wherever, in the "underclass", who want their kids to have a better life, and really care about it, being knocked back by the system at every turn. Untill they give up in dispair, the kids buy a tube of glue and start wagging school, and the cycle perpetuates itself. It's not the wicked white man the Maoris in the underclass need protecting from , its their own mates who want to drag them down.

I know parents (of ALL ethnicities) slogging their guts out in ghastly vile jobs for totally contemptable wages, working every hour that God sends , just so their kids will get out. They don't need a lot of patronising shit about it all being "the fault of the system " or "the odds being stacked against them". What they NEED are decent schools, where their kids get a proper education, decent policing, decent transport, decent jobs at decent wages.

[COP_B8]

errrr - is that true (open question - I don't know personally..) but if so... the Treaty is an agreement between a nationwide group of disparate leaders (which arguably constitutes Maoridom), and the Queen.

Get Liz over here to sort this...

There was no national sovereignity pre 1840 as far as I am aware, It was one of Busby's "achievements", [whom was the first European appointed resident of New Zealand], to initiate the creation of a collective Maori Sovereignity, this however failed as it was only amongst the Northern tribes and the decleration that was signed regarding this was not adhered too.

Treaty: an agreement between two states
State: The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity

[bistard]

Well said Ixion
I have just been reading this whole thread & its bloody good to see there are like minded people in this country,that arnt into the "them & us "
Lets get on with things as one country
Why cant we get all of this through to the people in power & stop the raping of this country
By the way Its New Zealand not Aoetearoa
I am a Kiwi not a Pakeha

[Deano]

Transit will reportedly prosecute any flag fliers on the bridge as it's not legal...............Yeah Right.

False threat more like it.

[KLOWN]

Why is it that we decide this part of news has been put across truthfully, we all know the media are full of shit and are about getting stories out there to cause controversy.

Im a maori new zealander, even tho im only part maori. At school we were taught all about the founding of this country in a class called english which was a compulsary class. In turn i had to choose the maori option to get a maori perspective of the same history. Wouldnt it be fantastic if maori was compulsary at school also as then we could head down the right path to a unified New Zealand.

history was a compulsary subject for me and they focused on the treaty of waitangi and maori history.

[Finn]

Finn - you seem unable to analyse any subject outside the parameters of a business and money related perspective. Tell me - how are kohanga reo about making money? So... if the treaty industry is about money (I know it is about greed along with reparation for some individuals too) are you happy that capitalist values have been so well absorbed by the natives then?

Capitalism is about W-O-R-K-I-N-G for money. Enough about me, tell us about yourself. Which category do you fall under:

A) Work for the Government
B) Have maori blood
C) On a benefit or,
D) Have long hair a wear sandals

Sorry, I forgot one more category...

F) Spent over 5 years at University