*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[Finn]

My girlfriend and I experienced maori culture yesterday. We went for a ride through Clevedon, then around the coast past Beachlands. Don't know the name of the bay, but it's the first one you hit on the coast. Theres a marae there and there's a gathering I assume for Whytonguee day.

What a bunch of neandathols. Here's what we observed:

Black Power by the dozen. A stock of booze that would turn Dover maori. White mans dirt bikes and quad bikes ripping around a paddock (Stolen - probably) About 30 of them dressed in gang and street gear standing at the gate acting all staunch and proud (proud of what, I don't know). One monkey gave us the finger, the others did that nigger thing with their hand to signify that they are the NZ Chapter of some American gang. Enough babies around to make Angelina Jolie think she had died and gone to heaven. No sign of traditional maori costume or any elders.

My girlfriend who has only lived in NZ for 3 years just shakes her head and laughs. It's embarrasing.

Edit: I have just been informed by a very reliable source that they were Tribesman, not Bleck Power.

[The_Dover]

I'm glad I gave the beach a miss yesterday then.

[COP_B8]

I'm more than happy to speak about my experience. My whanau couldn't afford to support me through Uni (pre student loans and after). More Maori are poor=less access to education even with student loans cos they still have to be paid back. More Maori are from low education or working class households=less role models, less understanding of what it takes to succeed and less expectation that education or professional careers are available. I know that this doesn't only apply to Maori, and it doesn't stop people like me from getting through the system.

In an age of Interest free loans, I think the argument about not being able to afford University is irrelevant. You can receive a student loan to cover your course fees, student allowances to cover your living expenses, course related costs to cover books, computers etc…The less your family/whanua earn the more you are entitled too.

Once I got into Uni I experienced something of a culture shock. I was used to having almost daily contact with extended whanau and having a feeling of being actively involved in something bigger than me. Something that was more important than my personal priorities. An example of this would be me dropping everything to assist an extended family member experiencing health problems or having to stop and visit extended family if I was passing through their town. I better have a good excuse if I didn't.

This is not just a Maori issue; imagine being an international student travelling to a different country.

Being away from this was really hard for me. Luckily I had a GS1000 and home was just a fast trip away. I also struggled with the rigidity and individual, competitive focus at uni. This totally blew me away as I knew I was Pakeha (and very happy about it), but I was like a Hillbilly fresh from the boonies. I was raised to be humble (whakaiti) and a weird off-shoot of this was that getting good grades would make me feel like I was being whakahihi (big headed and showing off). Ever cruised through papers or held back in tutorials so your class-mates wouldn't feel belittled? .

Basically life... most of New Zealand is like that in the real world so why would a University not prepare you for it, in most of the courses I have done you are directly competing with the person sitting next to you for a place in the following years course, in one class, of those whom started only ½ could continue in the next year. I too am also like that, you try and appear less smarter than you are in order to fit in otherwise it is like the tall poppy syndrome, those that stand out above the rest will be chopped down.

It happened. When with non-Maori I learnt to watch what I said for a whole bunch of reasons. If I spoke of my beliefs about topics like why Maori do things the way we do, I would often end up having an argument I didn't want to have with people that I liked. So it was hard to be myself in a relaxed way. I'd get little oases and recharge myself by being involved with other Maori at Uni and getting home often. If an extended family member died I would be torn between attending the tangi ( often a several day commitment with travel time) and attending to my study.

The courses I studied often contained asumptions that didn't gel with the way I thought the world worked e.g. the professional boundaries of psychology, wellness being measured as an individual's issue without reference to others, the emphasis on the measurable and observable and the minimising of things like traditional belief systems (I think an understanding of both is important and has value. In my work, what I believe isn't half as important as what my client believes).

I disagree with a lot of what I am studying… It’s the Law, how can you agree. And with theories on criminal behaviour, for often what I study, write about and research is in fact not what I believe in however this is something that I have to do, there will be ethical dilemma’s in most subjects, Ive learnt so far at University that you do not only receive marks for conforming to these, but it is perfectly okay to question them and rationally argue it.

When I was studying, I wasn't just doing it for me. My whanau had an investment in my performance as well. Everything I do reflects on my family. If I fuck up, they have fucked up. That can make it scary to try because failing is so shameful.

That is very common, when I dropped out of university the first time (7 years ago) my parents were gutted, they would make excuses to tell people like, It wasn’t the right time for University for him, he wanted to experience the world a bit before university etc… I knew people who were scared of failing solely for what the parents would think of they did.

And I know this one might get an incredulous reaction, but I carry my ancestors with me. I have a responsibility to behave in a way that doesn't discredit them. This produces an interesting tension for me. I don't seriously believe that the ghosts of my Grandparents are standing at my shoulders, but they are. Doesn't make sense eh? Everybody responds to these kinds of presure in different ways and obviously not all Maori feel them, but trust me, get a bunch of Maori together and the large majority will know what these things are like, regardless of background and how traditional their upbringing has been.

I'm probably not providing enough information and it is very subjective, but the best summary I can give is that I really felt like an outsider, probably not just because of my mixed ethnicity but also because of my socio-economic background; and I also had commitments and stressors that non-Maori didn't have .

Possibly, however non-Maori also have differing stressors as well, my last year at university was also similar, I was an outsider given I was some 7 years older than most of the people studying, a “mature student,” I had the financial stress of having come from a very well paying professional job for the last couple of years [and the lifestyle attached to that] to student life with no full time employment, I had 3 best mates die in the later part of the year.

These debates use a strange mix of general statements, specific examples, and leaps of logic that are often contrary to other arguments we might make. I know that I will say things like people shouldn't make generalisations, then go ahead and make some of my own. Or get angry about people making "us and them" statements, then do exactly the same thing. I don't know how to resolve this especially with a topic that seems to trigger an emotion-charged self-protection mechanism. These issues don't have a single truth. All aspects of the debate have truth. Those who use resources should pay for them, but a society that cares for others without access to resources is a good society.

I have no problem assisting people who do not have access to resources such as student allowances for those people that otherwise could not afford to attend university. What I do however have a problem with is assisting people based on culture alone.

We should all be held accountable to a single set of laws, but we should also be able to express our identities and beliefs if we aren't hurting others. I want to live in a community that encourages and accepts diversity without being threatened. This will mean accepting some things that feel counter-intuitive like admission quotas, and there will be people that will rip the system off (from all ethnic groups).

Should then Asians have admission quotas, how about Samoans, Tongans, Pakeha’s…

Maori don't have a monopoly on struggle but for what it's worth we have a treaty that hasn't been honored. Statements about this being history and we should all move on, feel like a total invalidation of my experience and who I am. I don't think this is people's intention but that is what it feels like. Nobody sensible wants the clock wound back and many people are getting on with it. It's the only way. But it would be good to have my history and experience validated. Another good one is "It's the law get over it". That's pre-adolescent level reasoning and all of us can think of examples of when the law is an ass. Speeding or Greg Carvel anyone? It's also ok to say "I don't get it but I know that it's real for you", or "I don't get it, but what's it really going to cost me?". I also think that there are shitheads in all groups within NZ, but the Good C***ts out-number the fuckers.
I figure that I have to set an example of being open about an important issue like this and walk the talk. I also appreciate that people on this thread have had the courage to express honest opinions. In saying that, I'm pretty tired of the energy required and I think this will be my last lengthy post in this thread. The OP rum calls. Congratulations to anyone that had the stamina to read this. I hope it made some sense.

Overall I see your points however although University may have been a challenge for you, for many different reasons, one being cultural the reality is that it is a challenge for almost everyone. New Zealand schooling does not adequately prepare most people for University. It is competitive, and a high degree of self-motivation is needed, unlike school, which is almost the complete opposite. Any person of any culture can struggle with coming from a different social background, learning new and sometimes objectionable things, or confirming to University life. To say that Maori deserve a special exemption is in my is just over political correctness.

[COP_B8]

Double POst

[Edbear]

The Maoris were not at war with the British...etc.

Another issue for the Chiefs at the time was they saw a choice between the French and the British. It was becoming fairly obvious that the Maori were going to have to form some agreement with either nation and most felt that the British were the better of the two to deal with - the lesser of two evils, I suppose.

The general hope was that the British would honour a Treaty and deal more fairly with them. Reading the two versions of the Treaty provides some interesting insights into the politicking that went on and one can see how interpreting it has been a real gravy train for the Lawyers!

It is obvious that principles, honour and trust have little place in politics and in the making of agreements and contracts.

[Citroenjunkie]

"It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country."

I emigrated to New Zealand from South Africa to get away from small minded people who couldn't simply live and let live.

No one is better than anyone else, and as a rule I find Kiwis the most amazing, accepting and respectful people who are secure and confident enough to make space for everyone.

Bending over blackwards benefits no one

[Patrick]

I choose to treat people based on who they are, not what they are.

That explains your digs at D50 and our kind... TUI anyone????

[Macktheknife]

"It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country."

Bending over blackwards benefits no one

I could not agree more, do away with the PC bullshit and let us get on with creating the kind of country and society that will make us all proud to belong to. The past cannot be changed, some recompense is appropriate BUT, the attempts to create cultural fear and shame are preposterous and damaging to our collective future. I am white, I make no apology for it. I know my history and culture and can trace my family back for nearly a thousand years across 4 countries and I'm still working on it. I am proud of knowing who they are and where they come from and that most of what they did was ok in that time, some of it was pretty shocking too. But I do not attempt to hide from that nor deny it ever took place. We cannot move on and develop as humans or as a society without acknowledging our past, but there is nothing to be gained by wailing and gnashing of teeth over things that cannot be changed. Nor is there any value in using any perceived wrongs of the past to justify abusive and dangerous behaviour now.
That applies to anyone of any culture/ethnicity/race.
Acknowledge your past, honour your forebears however you will, then get on with the present because it waits for no-one.

[The_Dover]

That explains your digs at D50 and our kind... TUI anyone????

Well, Paddy me old china, do you see me digging at any of the other pigs on this forum?

Nope, it's because Diana bites back like a good'un. Except with ever so slightly retarded come backs like I get from Vicky's 5 year old daughter. Only she's more eloquent.

[Finn]

Bending over blackwards benefits no one

The white kiwi contortionists think it does. Odd.

[Bonez]

Interesting tid bits in this blog - http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2004/09/another_bet.html

[doc]

My girlfriend and I experienced maori culture yesterday. We went for a ride through Clevedon, then around the coast past Beachlands. Don't know the name of the bay, but it's the first one you hit on the coast. Theres a marae there and there's a gathering I assume for Whytonguee day.

What a bunch of neandathols. Here's what we observed:

Black Power by the dozen. A stock of booze that would turn Dover maori. White mans dirt bikes and quad bikes ripping around a paddock (Stolen - probably) About 30 of them dressed in gang and street gear standing at the gate acting all staunch and proud (proud of what, I don't know). One monkey gave us the finger, the others did that nigger thing with their hand to signify that they are the NZ Chapter of some American gang. Enough babies around to make Angelina Jolie think she had died and gone to heaven. No sign of traditional maori costume or any elders.

My girlfriend who has only lived in NZ for 3 years just shakes her head and laughs. It's embarrasing.

Edit: I have just been informed by a very reliable source that they were Tribesman, not Bleck Power.

Thats what you get when you ride a honda, (Remember the advertisements
You meet the nicest people on a Honda) mind you thats when Gay meant Happy.

[doc]

It's alright for most of you of New Zealand origin or whatever. As a Shiftworker I am unable to participate in the celebration of Waitangi Day. Some of you may just view this as a Pakeha day off. I however must put up with slaving away for 9 Hours at triple time plus a Lieu day. I will looking out the window and praying that forecast rain happens FCUK you all. Just realized I have to work the whole of Easter as well.You Bastards.

[Aero165]

I agree!!! I think that some people get away with to much in this country because they call themselves "maori"

[elle-f]

DOC *gasps* surely you cannot wish rain on us all during those times!