*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

**Patrick** · 6th February 2007, 07:07

Originally Posted by The_Dover

Well, Paddy me old china, do you see me digging at any of the other pigs on this forum?

I'd have to go back through time... can't be bothered... I'm sure there has been (me included...)

**The_Dover** · 6th February 2007, 07:11

Originally Posted by Patrick

I'd have to go back through time... can't be bothered... I'm sure there has been (me included...)

I mean at every chance I get you tit.

**Colapop** · 6th February 2007, 15:57

After today - yes, I'm fucking pissed off!

For all the talk that has been in this thread about who comes from where and who belongs to what group or not and why, who has said that this country is divided or not - take a look around you!

Waitangi day or NZ day as some liberals call it (to appease others) is a load of BULLSHIT! It's supposed to be a public holiday to celebrate our country, Te Papa (Our place). Quit fucking fooling yourselves! This isn't "Our Place" as long as we (as a community/society) condone the actions of the shit stirring, divisive, separatist wankers that think they have a right to disturb the public of this country. I do not wish to take part in organised psuedo-Maori celebrations that involve Maori sovreignty being shoved down my throat (again).

I had occasion to be downtown Wellington today (Waitangi Park) and had activists handing out fucking literature about their 'cause'. Gimme a fucking break, I'm on holiday I don't need mormonista's trying to convert me! FUCK OFF! So I think I don't need the bullshit of these idiots and decide that Onehunga Bay (shelly bay as the locals call it) in Titahi Bay is a good choice to get away from the crowds and consequently activists that had decided to annoy me. WRONG. A convoy of wanktards turn up claiming that this is Maori day with their fucking sovereignty flags and continued BULLSHIT.

I've said it before - I AM NOT RACIST. I don't give a fuck where you come from as long as you abide by the laws of this country you can do as you wish - although it would be really nice if when in rome you at least tried to partially assimate your ways with those of the locals, so to speak.

Oh don't worry I've heard your protestations of fair deals for Maori and non-divisive intentions and that's just such a wonderful, peace, love and happiness way to view things. BUT the reality is that there are too many fucking wankers out there who think they have a given right to ram this shit down our fucking throats! If, as a society/community do not get off our fat arses and deal with this bullshit then we are going to have far more serious and divisive problems to deal with.

Try and tell me now that all that I've seen and heard is just a cry for help! For fucks sake lets sort this shit out once and for all and move on.

**mstriumph** · 6th February 2007, 16:16

Originally Posted by The_Dover

..................All citizens should have equal rights. That's all I'm saying. No one should be entitled to any more public money than anyone else. No one should receive reparation for historical "perceived" wrongs. Things were different in those days, some of us have evolved and expect democracy to follow the wishes of the majority.

i'd vote for you

**Macktheknife** · 6th February 2007, 17:04

Originally Posted by Colapop

Try and tell me now that all that I've seen and heard is just a cry for help! For fucks sake lets sort this shit out once and for all and move on.

Well said Col, but sadly it won't happen that way. (which is the problem I guess) Because the bleeding heart liberal types bend over and take it up the arse every time some renegade separatist Maori activist decides to use terms like 'indigenous people' or 'Tangata Whenua' or 'breach of treaty' when it says nothing of the kind.
Maori are not the indigenous people of NZ, simple fact. Indigenous: originating in a particular region or country; native.
They arrived here after many others and killed off most of them, but not all. The only difference between Maori and me is the colour of skin and the exact length of time living here. As far as I am concerned, the Europeans did much the same to them as they did to those they attacked, with the exception of not using Maori as slaves or eating them.
Do we hear of claims from the earlier people the Maori subjugated? NO. Would the so-called Maori-nation types front up if there was such a claim, and take responsibility for their ancestors actions? (even those of another Iwi)
I will just have a Tui shall I?
Maori sovereignty is a load of shite, grow up and share like everyone else had to, or fuck off, you will get no sympathy here.

**Clivoris** · 6th February 2007, 20:49

Originally Posted by COP_B8

In an age of Interest free loans, I think the argument about not being able to afford University is irrelevant. You can receive a student loan to cover your course fees, student allowances to cover your living expenses, course related costs to cover books, computers etc…The less your family/whanua earn the more you are entitled too.

This is not just a Maori issue; imagine being an international student travelling to a different country.

Basically life... most of New Zealand is like that in the real world so why would a University not prepare you for it, in most of the courses I have done you are directly competing with the person sitting next to you for a place in the following years course, in one class, of those whom started only ½ could continue in the next year. I too am also like that, you try and appear less smarter than you are in order to fit in otherwise it is like the tall poppy syndrome, those that stand out above the rest will be chopped down.

I disagree with a lot of what I am studying… It’s the Law, how can you agree. And with theories on criminal behaviour, for often what I study, write about and research is in fact not what I believe in however this is something that I have to do, there will be ethical dilemma’s in most subjects, Ive learnt so far at University that you do not only receive marks for conforming to these, but it is perfectly okay to question them and rationally argue it.

That is very common, when I dropped out of university the first time (7 years ago) my parents were gutted, they would make excuses to tell people like, It wasn’t the right time for University for him, he wanted to experience the world a bit before university etc… I knew people who were scared of failing solely for what the parents would think of they did.

Possibly, however non-Maori also have differing stressors as well, my last year at university was also similar, I was an outsider given I was some 7 years older than most of the people studying, a “mature student,” I had the financial stress of having come from a very well paying professional job for the last couple of years [and the lifestyle attached to that] to student life with no full time employment, I had 3 best mates die in the later part of the year.

I have no problem assisting people who do not have access to resources such as student allowances for those people that otherwise could not afford to attend university. What I do however have a problem with is assisting people based on culture alone.

Should then Asians have admission quotas, how about Samoans, Tongans, Pakeha’s…

Overall I see your points however although University may have been a challenge for you, for many different reasons, one being cultural the reality is that it is a challenge for almost everyone. New Zealand schooling does not adequately prepare most people for University. It is competitive, and a high degree of self-motivation is needed, unlike school, which is almost the complete opposite. Any person of any culture can struggle with coming from a different social background, learning new and sometimes objectionable things, or confirming to University life. To say that Maori deserve a special exemption is in my is just over political correctness.

We probably agree more than we disagree. I agree that these are not just Maori issues, but I take the perspective that Maori are more likely to be disadvantaged than Pakeha/European New Zealanders. The stats are out there and I can't be bothered chasing them up. I believe that this disadvantage is a direct consequence of colonisation and a culture that has a tendency for different priorities, and it would be nice if it was acknowledged and corrected some-how. However, it would be a pretty clever trick to this well without causing problems, and you're probably right that ethnicity based initiatives are too clumsy, but I don't have the answers. Heaps of good stuff has been done already and even if nothing else is done Maori are moving forward anyway.

This is a complex issue complicated by the different starting places that we all have. It would be nice, but boring, if we all believed the same things and behaved in the same ways. In the meantime I'll enjoy being able to talk about these things with people that are willing to try on different ideas. I should probably be willing to do that myself.

**Clivoris** · 6th February 2007, 21:15

Originally Posted by Colapop

After today - yes, I'm fucking pissed off!

Don't let em get to you Colapop. Life's too short to get wound up by people expressing an opinion loudly.

**candor** · 6th February 2007, 22:01

Colapop - you mean you were not prepared with printouts of this thread to exchange with the over excited radicals? Party pooper you.

**Lou Girardin** · 7th February 2007, 06:03

Does Tino Rangitiratanga also involve self funding of the Maori state and renegotiation of all recent treaty settlements?
After all, we don't want to contribute taxpayer funds to a foreign state. Do we?

**MisterD** · 7th February 2007, 07:15

Observation from yesterday: I think it may be time to consign Maori Culture to the National Archives, it seems that on the basis of pure numbers Maori culture is now wannabe LA gangsters and rastafarians.

**Colapop** · 7th February 2007, 09:27

Originally Posted by Clivoris

Don't let em get to you Colapop. Life's too short to get wound up by people expressing an opinion loudly.

I don't mind people expressing an opinion, but to shout down anyone who has a view that is different (right or wrong) is crap. It would also help that those expressing their opinion actually have a well reasoned debatable point of view to express - instead of just making noise to hear their own 'cultural' voice!

**Paul in NZ** · 7th February 2007, 10:00

Originally Posted by Colapop

I don't mind people expressing an opinion

Well you wouldn't guess it from reading you post Col...

Look - on the overall scale of things I'm more in your camp than anyplace else BUT - you have to admit that the 'demands' of Maoridom and the way the who thing has been handled thus far is a credit to this country. Yeah a few get a bit stroppy and wave flags etc but thus far no ones been shot, blown up or kidnapped.

New Zealanders are a pretty pragmatic bunch and we will find a way through this - we have to and I for one think things are getting better. Sure, the treaty thing is a bit of a gravy train for some but just like Orphanages attract the odd kiddy fidler - there will always be ratbags exploiting good and just causes for their own ends.

Instead of getting upset with a few flags - maybe we could try and understand what Maori Sovereignty really means? The leaders of Maoridom all have a different take on it as do we. It may well mean that withing certain boundaries maoridom has the responsibility to undertake certain functions, much like a City Council has responsibilty for parking or roadin inside a city limit - who knows.

Better for people to wave a few flags, pass out a few leaflets and go for a walk on a nice sunny day than have them blowing up railway stations.

Me? I went to kaitoke with vicki and we took a picnic. Parked next to a maori family and a tree. There was a Chinese family one down and some touists enjoying the sun and the water - pretty good shit really.

**Colapop** · 7th February 2007, 10:43

I know what you're saying and although I get a little hot under the collar on occasion, I do enjoy well reasoned debate. I just have had any real life stuff. It's just been a case of "shove it down their thoats - they will see things our way". Well reasoned debate is healthy, and an important part of democracy.

I just think there are better ways of getting their message across than the methods used yesterday.