War?

[doc]

Aren't you contradicting yourself more than a bit right there?

Oh, and I thought that one of the traits of a modern democracy is the separation of religion /or church/ and state?

Sorry I didn't explain what I meant, it's nothing personal, but to me when for example an immigrant chooses to move and live in a different society, it seems that a democratic government allows the minority his rights, at the expense of the majority. But it doesn't work in reverse. Look at Christians in a Muslim environment. You can't have NRL players changing codes and trying to be in the AB's but still play with the rules of the code he left.

[Sniper]

Sorry I didn't explain what I meant, it's nothing personal, but to me when for example an immigrant chooses to move and live in a different society, it seems that a democratic government allows the minority his rights, at the expense of the majority. But it doesn't work in reverse. Look at Christians in a Muslim environment. You can't have NRL players changing codes and trying to be in the AB's but still play with the rules of the code he left.

Well said Doc

[Toaster]

NZ Navy - pic of future ships.... less the gun of course because that might be seen as 'aggressive'.....

[doc]

Glass palace, pffft.. I lived and worked in the middle east mate, kept my eyes open too and learnt a thing or two about our world that didn't make me all that comfortable being a so called democratic. So is Iraq now beter off..? Remember these people are different, they are desert people, Arab people, not like you and I and yet you sit there in your little comfy zone behind your keyboard judging the hell out of them, based on what? Television news, a gut feeling or hearsay..? How about looking at some of the positives that the Arab world has, do you know any? Have you looked..?

Calm down. Te Toro may be dry this time of the year but it aint desert.I bet that when you were living in the middle east you were living in a pretty secure environment not living like a local. Iraq will never be any different, until Saddam comes out from hiding (remember he had a double ) Iraq can only be prosper under a dictatorship seemed pretty good to most of them before GW Bush came along and stirred them up they had ( The US intention to bring democracy to them even if they have to kill every last one of them). The Iraq situation wont be sorted until they're making parts for Harleys then they will be on their feet economically.

[SPman]

Nope, we're not even allowed to talk sternly to vessels that enter our waters and steal our fish/deliver our drugs. The greens would have a field day if we acted the same way as the Pom-Iranians (isn't that a dog breed?)

Oh yes - we can talk VERY sternly to vessels that enter our water and steal our fish - at least, the Navy guys on the scene do!
Pollies - well, thats another matter

[terbang]

I bet that when you were living in the middle east you were living in a pretty secure environment not living like a local.

You're right it was pretty secure. But whats yer point. I was based in Amman, Jordan flying for Palestinians, the route structure including Gaza certainly had it's security risks. I was one of two 'westerners', and the only western pilot amongst Arabs. It was a fairly severe immersion I would say. Being a Kiwi, I was well accepted (providing I established that I was one). I heard their stories, saw the way the conducted their lives and accepted that they were different. I was treated well and with the same respect in return, though I was there in a position of leadership. Friendships flourished out of mutual respect and a social life was had. All very different to what we have here but, but similar because they are human. I have no intention of leading my life like them, hence why I am back here for now, but I also feel no compulsion to try and change their ways or inflict my values upon them. That is why I was successful amongst them. It may come as a complete surprise to some (sadly so) that Palestinians wish to stay Palestinians just like we Kiwi's wish to stay Kiwi's. How could I after such an experience label them in the way that I so often see done so easily on forums such as this.

Iraq will never be any different, until Saddam comes out from hiding (remember he had a double ) Iraq can only be prosper under a dictatorship seemed pretty good to most of them before GW Bush came along and stirred them up they had ( The US intention to bring democracy to them even if they have to kill every last one of them)

Something we can agree on. As I have been saying, they are different people to us (and US) and have been like that for a bloody long time without democracy (well the kind we know).

[terbang]

Oh yes - we can talk VERY sternly to vessels that enter our water and steal our fish - at least, the Navy guys on the scene do!
Pollies - well, thats another matter

Don't know about the Kiwi scene but the Aussies talk very sternly to those that illegaly enter their waters. I was one of the stern takers for a period of time. Trouble here in NZ is that we have no-one to talk sternly to them anymore.

[mstriumph]

Anyone who wants to nuke israel gets 2 thumbs up in my book lol

erm - isn't your slightly ott prejudice against israel a bit at odds with your signature?

i quote
"Liberalism is an essentially infantile, submissive world view. It is the world view of men who do not have the moral toughness, the spiritual strength to stand up and do single combat with life, who cannot adjust to the reality that the world is not a huge, pink-and-blue, padded nursery in which the lions lie down with the lambs and everyone lives happily ever after."

i mean, if it's one thing the israelies AREN't it's infantile and submissive and the rest of the stuff you go on about ......

[mstriumph]

I'm not a huge fan of the Isralis myself, they have always been involved in any sort of scrap that the world has, or has has. However I used to fly for Palestinians and having felt the heat of Israeli hostility, I guess my view would be a little one sided. The irony is that the Arabs and the Jews are basicly the same race of people separated by religion. Though I think the round trip the diaspora took sort of europeanised them a bit.
The Jewish state and its supported imposition on the middle east will continue to be a scource of anguish for the Arab people for a long time to come. Though the arabs, like others, do fight amongst themselves they tend to unite when it comes to Israel and the US or anyone who supports them.

the irony is twofold
firstly that you consider yourself only 'a little' one-sided
and secondly that you only use words like 'holstility' in connection with the israelies and not the equally [or more] aggressive arabs .......and 'anguish' in connection only with the arabs, implying that only they are the victims of this ongoing insanity

just listen to yourself ...... that isn't helpful?

entrenched factionalism solves nothing

[i'm a celt - we learnt by experience ....and some would say we haven't finished learning yet]

[Dave Lobster]

Well go back to living where your beliefs lie. And hold these opinions.

Do explain..

Personally, I don't need beliefs in things like flying saucers/big wild cats/copper bracelets for rhumetism/gods/etc. Where do you suggest I go back to?

[doc]

Something we can agree on. As I have been saying, they are different people to us (and US) and have been like that for a bloody long time without democracy (well the kind we know).

Fair enough, but I don't think USA can get out of this one very tidily. But back to original topic, I don't think this one is going to roll over so easy or quickly. Feel sorry for those brits. The Iranians are no fools (not talking about the leadership) and have an experienced force with considerable active service experience on their own turf. The renaissance of the US special forces
had their first mission in this country and we know how badly they cocked that up. Lets hope the Brits keep them out of this one. Even tho its bad manners not inviting your friends to a war.

[doc]

Do explain..

Personally, I don't need beliefs in things like flying saucers/big wild cats/copper bracelets for rhumetism/gods/etc. Where do you suggest I go back to?

Ok how about this one then. Basically this is about Muslims and the others (I loosely use the christians) My problem is with the ones on the others side (Christians ) who want to keep on turning the cheek in defence of the other side. Like that Auck uni student from Canada who was captured in Iraq and threatened with beheading a year or so ago, they executed one of his group. They caught the group that did it and he wouldn't testify against them because he believed what they were doing was right and America was in the wrong. I don't think he has gone back tho Hamet Sooden or some name like that.

[Hans]

Sorry I didn't explain what I meant, it's nothing personal, but to me when for example an immigrant chooses to move and live in a different society, it seems that a democratic government allows the minority his rights, at the expense of the majority. But it doesn't work in reverse. Look at Christians in a Muslim environment. You can't have NRL players changing codes and trying to be in the AB's but still play with the rules of the code he left.

No problems at all.

[SPman]

When a fundamentalist mindset comes in the door - all reason is lost.
This applies to fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc.
They are all as stupid and pig headed as each other, will never admit they are wrong, wish to see all others "converted" or dead.

A pox on all their houses!!!!

[SixPackBack]

When a fundamentalist mindset comes in the door - all reason is lost.
This applies to fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc.
They are all as stupid and pig headed as each other, will never admit they are wrong, wish to see all others "converted" or dead.

A pox on all their houses!!!!

Yeah what SPman said.