Underground History - American Education

[Mongoose]

You've utterly nailed it on the head. I have a 4 year old at Kindergarten and to avoid CYF intervention I've had to provide a food diary (He has too much energy we've been told. He eats way better and now chooses to eat way better than I do thanks to his Mum's insistence on only feeding our kids fresh food) of what he eats and send him to speech therapy, because he is ebullient, outgoing, and won't do every thing he's told to - especially if it makes no sense. We've just managed to catch the teachers physically restraining him, so we're about to use some of the PC crap in our favour. Whatever you do, don't have kids who behave or perform outside the norm.

That is a tricky one alright, seems to be the modern way, if your kid behaves outside the "norms" then it is either bad diet or get them on drugs NOW.
I have always brought my kids up to question that what they dont understand and not to be afraid if a teacher is wrong to also ask for clarification. Teachers are human too and do make mistakes.

[Pwalo]

[QUOTE=Mongoose]That is a tricky one alright, seems to be the modern way, if your kid behaves outside the "norms" then it is either bad diet or get them on drugs NOW.

Have to agree with you and Jim about this one. Both of my boys were told off for being too noisy at playtime !!!!!!! (This was in a primary school with an all women staff). My younger son wasn't allowed to go up a class because the teacher said he was too disruptive. She agreed that it was in fact because he found the work(?) too easy and was always finished before anyone else. So you can only be a good student if you sit nice and quietly and don't talk to your friends. Bugger me.

Even better my elder son was told off for climbing a tree (obviously far too dangerous), and for fighting back when a bully tried to beat him up. In fact he was punished and the other kid wasn't even talked to (in fact the other child was sent to a special school for behavioural problems in the next term).

I think that was probably exacerbated by not having any younger or male teachers (although younger male teachers seem a bit 'wimpy'). Certainly not the case at the local secondary school where the don't seem to mind a bit of boistrousness but don't tolerate any bullying.

Look I think that schools are for learning how to acquire knowledge, and to socialise. How to read, write, do maths, etc, and get along with your peers.

University is for research. Job training belongs in a polytech. School is not the place for job training but to get a good basic education.

Now where's that valium.

[Motu]

So,I guess you are all wondering how a home schooled kid turns out...they have no qualifications,don't know how to interact with others,all that crap - I hear it all the time.

My 2 elder girls are out in the work force now,lets see how they are doing.My oldest daughter is 23,very intelligent (of course),but is fragile emotionaly and seems to lack motivation.For some reason she became and urgent courier and has been doing it for over 4 yrs now,driving non stop over 10 hrs a day,not even stopping for food sometimes.She has her bad days,totaly shattered,not even able to lift her arms to eat,falls asleep standing in the doorway.But it seems to be what she wants to do,a bit disapointing for us,not using her good brain for any useful purpose.But that's what she likes about it I think - she's her own boss,out there by herself,making decisions,involved in the real world....but it only takes a small part of her brain,the rest she can let wander at will,she's doing other things in her head,always has,just like her father.Another home schooled friend of hers went to university and got his BA - he has just landed a job...training to be a waiter - yeah,I know...''would you like fries with that sir?''

Daughter number 2 was not so academicaly inclined,didn't even read till she was 7,not slow,just doing it different.But got motivated,wanted to get out in the work force - she set her eyes on the retail trade,wanted to work in a clothing shop.So at 15 she went off canvasing all the malls for work - of course they don't employ 15 yr olds,told her to come back when she was 18.So we sent her on a retail training course,made for all the deadbeat nohopers of society,but she loved it,got to have transvestites and gang members as mates,was the teachers star pupil.While still on the course she was picked out of over 200 applicants for a job in an international retail chain,the 16 yr old picked over more mature women,they obviously saw something.At 19 in a couple of days she is 2IC of a store,but can't be assistant manager or even manager at her age,which annoys her,she wants to keep moving up.Her downfall will be her teenager life - out every night,clubbing,pubs,parties - I hear she has a nipple pierced,but hasn't told me - she needs to get this out of her system before she can move forward.

Ok,I had hoped for child prodigies that would marry rich movie stars - but in reality I'm happy they are alive in good health and are happy on alternate days.

My boys are rocket scientists - and if you ever see me as an arcade champion,that's them at work.

[mangell6]

Motu, how could you have created such free thinking individualistic individuals. Why did you educate your children about free thinking, having a purpose, getting what you want out of life because its what you want not what society says. Oh for more parents like you who encourage their children to THINK and beleive that it is OK to challenge the 'norm'.
You do realise that they will never be average or mediocre . . . .
Well done.
Mike

[Milky]

My take on the education system as it stood over the past 3-4 years may be a bit biased due to the impending introduction of NCEA. Bullet pointed, because I cant be bothered making it more coherent:

***start brain dump here***

1. There was little or no provision for students who wanted to look at a career in the trades. Emphasis was put on paperwork, useless wordy analysis which didnt fit with many of the people who took the workshop classes... They wanted to learn how to weld/read the grain in a piece of wood, not write about the possible inventions for the future

2. There was not much publicised apart from tertiary training as a next step from school. No matter where it was - waiting/hairdressing/mechanic - all the options were either polytech or uni style courses. Noone was publicising the modern apprentiship scheme touted by the government as being so wonderful

3. There was little or no provision for someone such as myself, who was too bright for the apprentice scheme, but wanted to get into the trades at a more practical level than someone coming out of University. I know someone who I went to school with - he got about 220-250 in bursary (correct me if I am wrong TS) - who is doing an electrical training programme through ETITO?? He isnt overly bright, but obviously better than most there, as he finds things go soooooooo slooooowwww... The scary thing is, others need it to be that slow

4. I know this isnt easy to solve, but choices I made in the beginning of form 4 - year 10 - affected what courses I could take in form 7, and hence the university course I could get into. So at an age of 14 I had to have a reasonably clear idea of not only whether I wanted to go to university, but also the type of course that I wanted to take if I chose to go there.

5. NCEA - new problems - As someone pointed out before, we are FAR too PC in the education system, and cant tell people they have failed, because it destroys their self esteem!!! did we see hordes of mal adjusted kids coming out of schools in the 18/1900's because they were disciplined/told they had failed/werent achieving? Not as far as I can see.. Although.. some of you are a bit strange now I think about it
What I see as a dumbing down of the education system discourages able students from aiming high as they have nothing to measure themselves against. Lumping everyone in nice tidy boxes is great from a beuraucratic point of view, but other than that, it is an abject failure.
Admittedly the last system wasnt perfect, but this is a great deal worse overall. Why would so many schools look towards alternative examinations if they didnt have reservations about NCEA?

6. Many of my friends went to uni because 'It's just what you do' after you leave school. No plans, no direction, just a flowing with the tide. This, combined with the 'knowledge economy' mantra has lead to a great reduction in the value of a degree. I dont know exactly, but I get the feeling that many university graduates on the 'production line' degrees - BSc, BA to a lesser extent BCom - end up with a few letters after their name which are NO USE at all in the careers they embark on. As Hitcher said - too many people with irrelevant degrees.

***end brain dump - coffee wearing off***

I might post more coherent thoughts once I review this with a fresh head

[jrandom]

So,I guess you are all wondering how a home schooled kid turns out...they have no qualifications,don't know how to interact with others,all that crap - I hear it all the time.

I think I've mentioned it here before; I was home schooled. Those of you who have met me will testify to the slight insanity, but I'm not sure that I can pin it on the home schooling.

I haven't decided on what to do with my two kids, yet.

You certainly didn't screw up, Motu. Your kids sound just fine and dandy. Nipple piercings and all.

[jrandom]

end brain dump

Oh arr. We have a saying.

"Isn't it cute when BAs think they're smart?"

Unfortunately you're entirely correct about the production-line degrees. A BSc ain't worth jack these days, unless you happen to have an A+ average and be otherwise brilliant.

[Motu]

So how old are you jrandom,or atleast what years were you home schooled,see where you fitted in with what groups were around at that time.When we started with my first daughter there were only a handful of people in Auckland doing it,before it got rather trendy.We stay away from the scene now,just use whats available,we don't have to do all the support work anymore.Glad to see you haven't turned out an obnoxcious sod who haunts internet forums telling stories that never happened and having an opinion on every post.

[jrandom]

So how old are you jrandom

I'm 23. Did it by the book up to 12 years old, then home-schooled my way through high school. I sort of compressed the schoolwork a bit. Chewed through it as fast as I could and went to do a worthless production-line degree when I was 16, bin out and working for almost five years now. An honorary middle-aged fart, is me. And not a 'true' home schooler, perhaps.

You can work out the timelines from that, I'm sure. Off top of t'head, I can't remember the years myself.

rather trendy

I'm not sure if it was trendy when me mum and dad did it. I remember the initial feeling of annoyance at being denied the chance to spend five years at the local rugby-playing skinny-white-boy-bashing establishment (Mt Albert Grammar, it would have been).

Turned out OK in the end, though.

obnoxcious sod who haunts internet forums telling stories that never happened and having an opinion on every post.

I ain't never told no stories wot never happened!

[Motu]

Same age as my eldest daughter,she was high school aged when we came back to Auckland.You may have heard of Meg Wilson,my wife and her have worked together on home schooling for years.Zander is the waiter...

[vifferman]

Well - this is an interesting thread for something with such a boring-looking title! Sorry I missed it up until now.

Glad to see you haven't turned out an obnoxcious sod who haunts internet forums telling stories that never happened and having an opinion on every post.

Is that a dig at me, Motu?
Hitcher - do you have just one steaming, stamping hobbyhorse in your gargre, or a veritable herd of them?
Anyways, here goes.
I have three boys: nearly 15, 17.5, and 20.7ish. The oldest two are very bright, and had 'interesting' educations. They are basically autodidactic (that basically means "self educating"), but did spend various amounts of time at school. They are both also somewhat autistic. The oldest went to school when he was 5, but 'tuned out', because he was bored, and already way ahead of his classmates. He would grab a book and read, and ignore the teacher. Because he wasn't being stimulated or challenged but was being bullied (on account of being a bit different), we weighed the options and sent him to a private school at age 7, at great expense. We reasoned that he would receive a better education and not be subject to bullying. Instead, he underwent "moulding" to fit the school's way of doing things, and was subject to intense bullying by classmates whose parents had plenty of money but apparently no time to spend raising their kids to be humans. His teacher basically didn't like him, and said he was the worst pupil she'd had in 26 years of teaching, and that his problem was that he was messy and disorganised. He was an emotional wreck after 6 months of this place...
So, my wife homeschooled him.

Second son - we sent him to school, and he played up, annoyed other kids, learnt and applied bad habits and language. After 6 weeks, we were tired of reporting to the deputy principal every day, so he was homeschooled too. We thought he's misbehaved because he was clever and thought that because his older brother was at home, he could be too, if he worked hard enough at it. The two boys learned more in a few hours a day than they would have at school, and were much happier away from an environment which was patently unsuitable for them.

When we moved to Christchurch a couple of years after this, my wife had had enough of homeschooling now 3 boisterous boys, and put them in the local school, where they did OK. The middle son spent a lot of his time as the de facto computer technician at every school he went to, as he had a natural affinity for and understanding of technology. (He started programming at 7, and taking apart electronic devices at about 3). Things were fine until we moved to Tauranga, and middle son had 12 teachers in less than a year, and all hell broke lose. Eventually, he was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, and we went "Ahhhhh... so that's why he's like he is."

Long and boring story cut short: school was useless for middle son, and eventually we let him drop out last year. He is still teaching himself, and knows more about electronics and computer harware/software and telecomms than anyone else I know (and I've worked at several computer companies). Oldest son is different - despite the fact he probably also is slightly autistic, he is quite gregarious, and loves knowledge so much that he is now in his third year of a Pharmacy degree. He reads all the time (even when walking to work!), and studies all kinds of stuff - history, warfare, science, art, etc. He absolutely thrives on the university lifestyle, and is getting good marks despite not working terribly hard (bad genes from me, I'm afraid...)
Youngest son hasn't 'found himself' yet, oweing largely to being overshadowed by his siblings, and missing out on a lot of attention due to his autistic brother requiring so much.

NCEA: I attended a meeting about this when our oldest son was in the 3rd form. The principle is OK (basically it was to acknowledge that kids had passed some parts of the curriculum, so if they didn't pass maths as a subject, at least they could show they knew how to do certain parts that might be relevant for a particular job. Unfortuantely, the bureaucrats got in and stuffed it up, and turned it into a giant administrative nightmare.

My education? A waste of time. School doesn't teach you how to learn, or how to think (critically analyse). Like has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I drifted from school (where I under-achieved) and into university (where I underachieved). Because my father was a scientist, and I was wishy-washy and didn't know what to do with myself, he steered me into doing a science degree. I started on chemistry, and drifted into Earth Sciences because it was novel and easier to get good marks by knowing a few 'facts' and knowing how to write well (how to bullshit). The only course that made me think, and that I voluntarily did extra research for was Philosophy of Science (which helped me to lose the little faith I had in science as a career). I realised along the way my course was no good for me, and tried 3 times to leave, eventually succeeding in my 6th year. I still haven't realised my vocation, and I'm not too happy about it. This helps in making sure that my kids know they can do whatever they want in life, as long as it's something they feel passionate enough about to provide the drive required.

[jrandom]

Eventually, he was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, and we went "Ahhhhh... so that's why he's like he is."

I recently read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time. Loved it.

As I've commented to you before, I suspect that your son has some top-notch abilities in certain fields that could garner him a satisfying occupation and plenty of cash.

This helps in making sure that my kids know they can do whatever they want in life, as long as it's something they feel passionate enough about to provide the drive required.

Absolutely.

F'rinstance, Sarah was talking yesterday to me about a 19-month-old boy she met at her gym creche. This kid could form enormous numbers of nouns and adjectives (endlessly, non-stop, describing whatever came into his field of vision) after having been force-fed some wonder-child series of tapes and videos by his parents.

I'm a bit dubious about all that. I just try to give my kids a pleasant, intelligent and emotionally stable environment, and let them flower as they will. If they underachieve as a result, I suspect they'll still be happy.

Meh.

Who knows?

[Motu]

Sorry guys - bit touchy eh? the obnoxious sod was a dig at myself - we are all busy bodies at heart.

Autodidactic huh,so that's what it's called - all I know is that if you leave a kid alone you can't stop them learning! My kids have just had to know everything about everything.That's the advantage of home schooling - keep on a subject for days,weeks,how ever long they need to satisfy their thirst.

[moko]

One thing which struck me after moving here was the sheer bloody-awfulness of the schools,in particular the number of adults that cant read and write.I know that`s not un-common but locally it was at epidemic proportions.Thing is the Dockyard here at the time employed some 18,000 people(yep,it`s that big),though government cut-backs have slashed that number.The majority of these were low-skilled jobs and that`s a massive requirement for a city of this size,I`d often thought along the lines that maybe the schools were deliberately crap so as to churn out people with limited aspirations,in fact the "Dockyard Exam" was a feature of local schools until a few years back,school/dockyard/retirement used to be the local norm.There were a couple of very good schools and places that appeared to be somewhere for people to pass away their school years before going into the yard.Different now and the government are busting a gut to get as many kids to take on higher education as possible.
Also we have the same problem Jackrat mentioned,I watched a news item only last week saying that a chemical company may have to pull out of Britain because there aren`t enough graduates to go round with the right qualifications and many Unis are dropping courses like Chemistry completely because of lack of demand.Meanwhile thousands of young people are doing degrees in Psychology,our building trade is full of French and Eastern Europen workers and we`re shamefully trawling medical staff from places like the Phillipines,Dentists from Poland and turning a blind eye to exploitation of illegal immigrants by criminal gangs because it boosts profits for British farmers and cowboy employers.

[Hitcher]

This kid could form enormous numbers of nouns and adjectives (endlessly, non-stop, describing whatever came into his field of vision) after having been force-fed some wonder-child series of tapes and videos by his parents.

Never ever confuse precociousness with intelligence.