Baghdad ER

[SARGE]

If this turns into another "let's bash an Arab" thread, it's off to PD.

but by all means .. bring on the Yank Bashing .. thats still allowed

[Hitcher]

but by all means .. bring on the Yank Bashing .. thats still allowed

It should surely be possible to have a discussion about the merits or otherwise of armed endeavour without invoking racial, ethnic or religious stereotypes in either direction. Or by forming views of armed conflict from watching Platoon.

[SARGE]

It should surely be possible to have a discussion about the merits or otherwise of armed endeavour without invoking racial, ethnic or religious stereotypes in either direction. Or by forming views of armed conflict from watching Platoon.

right.. ill be keeping an eye ( only one though) on the bashing in either direction on KB and will keep you updated in case of racial, ethnic or religious stereotyping .. not like there is ever any on here

never seen Platoon btw.. you should see the movie in my head though.. you'd shit yourself .. the SFX are bloody... awesome

[SPman]

just as an afterthought .. NONE of the young American troops are conscripts ..every single one of them volunteered for duty knowing full well what they are expected to do and live through. it IS frightening..anyone who tells you that being in a situation like that isnt has never been there . it does show you who and what you are to the very boot-sector of your soul. thank God (alah, Odin, Neptune, Bessie the Wonder-Cow) that there are young people who know the value of freedom and don't shirk their duties. ( i am guessing, not unlike your father in WW2)

WW2 was quite different in meaning, though....... What is more frightening to the US is that the same guys are now being rotated through a second or even third tour, whether they want to or not - there arent enough troops to go around. Be better if they sent Rumsfield, Cheney, Blair, Howard and all their cronies over to slug it out and send the troops home. How many Western mercenaries are there over there now? 5000? 10,000? - theres a whole army of them and they are bound by no laws at all - other than survival - playing out their fantasies for a load of cash. Better ALL the westerners pull out and leave them to it - being there will never bring about a resolution.

[Swoop]

What is more frightening to the US is that the same guys are now being rotated through a second or even third tour, whether they want to or not - there arent enough troops to go around.

Interestingly enough, the C-17 Globemaster II fleet along with the remaining Starlifters, are being chewed up.
Designed for a lifespan of XX hours/years in peacetime conditions, the operational demands of all the global workload PLUS middle eastern conflicts (x2) are going to kill off the airframes super-quick.

[SARGE]

WW2 was quite different in meaning, though....... What is more frightening to the US is that the same guys are now being rotated through a second or even third tour, whether they want to or not - there arent enough troops to go around. Be better if they sent Rumsfield, Cheney, Blair, Howard and all their cronies over to slug it out and send the troops home. How many Western mercenaries are there over there now? 5000? 10,000? - theres a whole army of them and they are bound by no laws at all - other than survival - playing out their fantasies for a load of cash. Better ALL the westerners pull out and leave them to it - being there will never bring about a resolution.

fuck man ... 2 of my nephews have volunteered to be rotated back in. one is USMC Recon, the other an Army Ranger. guess they are not just soft cocks who joined up for the free education thinking they'd never have to actually earn it.

the SECOND the western military pulls out, the whole middle east becomes a festering training ground for "insurgents". The Iraqi foreign Minister recently called the group of US Soldiers who rescued that shitload of starving orphans " the Enemies of Iraq" , while the director of the orphanage was living the fucking high-life selling their food to the Insurgents

the SECOND the Western Military pulls out. the flow of oil from OPEC stops.

the SECOND the Western Military pulls out, America and the rest of the civilized world appear weak and uncommitted , breeding future attacks because we run when the fighting starts..


one day as a tiger or 10,000 years as a sheep

[Biff]

the SECOND the Western Military pulls out. the flow of oil from OPEC stops.

I think Iran, Indonesia, Algeria, Venezuala, Libya, Nigeria etc may disagree with you on that one dude.

[SARGE]

I think Iran, Indonesia, Algeria, Venezuela, Libya, Nigeria etc may disagree with you on that one dude.

yea .. especially Iran and Algeria huh?


the oil that flows out of all those countries is worth TRILLIONS, yet the upper echelon is living in castles, while the people on the street are living in squalor and poverty..


thats fair..

[Biff]

yea .. especially Iran and Algeria huh?


the oil that flows out of all those countries is worth TRILLIONS, yet the upper echelon is living in castles, while the people on the street are living in squalor and poverty..


thats fair..

Yeah. Like the current US president having his election paid for by the US oil giants.

I'm in Tehran at the moment. There's no castles here. Excellent infrastrusture though, and the standard of living has gone through the roof over the last 5 years. Free health care now as well (unlike the US).

Unlike the western world no private individual appears to be making squillions here, as it's against Islamic law. The oil belongs to the people. That's why they hate the Brits so much here, as we raped their country of oil for decades before the people rose up, kicked the Brits and the Americans out, then spread the wealth to the communities.

That said - the big money is being held by the government to fund the country, as the US has blocked all money and investment coming into the country. Just as well the local religious types are investing so much of their own (my hotel room over looks a new, state funded, jewish school!).

[SARGE]

Yeah. Like the current US president having his election paid for by the US oil giants.

I'm in Tehran at the moment. There's no castles here. Excellent infrastrusture though, and the standard of living has gone through the roof over the last 5 years. Free health care now as well (unlike the US).

Unlike the western world no private individual appears to be making squillions here, as it's against Islamic law. The oil belongs to the people. That's why they hate the Brits so much here, as we raped their country of oil for decades before the people rose up, kicked the Brits and the Americans out, then spread the wealth to the communities.

That said - the big money is being held by the government to fund the country, as the US has blocked all money and investment coming into the country. Just as well the local religious types are investing so much of their own (my hotel room over looks a new, state funded, jewish school!).

have a look at the mess Iraq was in. Hussein was living large. He went on TV and asked the people to donate their gold jewelery to fund food for the poor.. a month later he was back on TV showing off his new gold throne

If Iran (yes.. and the US) would stop the bullshit saber rattling and come to the table about the nuke power thing it could b a boon to both countries. Nuke power is clean and cheap ( after the initial setup) but Iran is keeping the UN at bay on inspections and that is where the friction comes in .. if they dont have anything to hide.. whats a little nose-in gonna hurt?

the world you are in right now is not the world i was in during my service, nor the world my nephews are in right now. If that is the case in Iran at this point.. good for them.. i say we encourage the growth and prosperity. nothing quells radicalism like prosperity ( unless of course you are a Christian Televangelist of course)

[Biff]

but Iran is keeping the UN at bay on inspections and that is where the friction comes in .. if they dont have anything to hide.. whats a little nose-in gonna hurt?

Here's the Iranian line...

The UN inspectors are already here, and never really left. They're currently inspecting the nuclear research facility in Isfahan (or Esfahan to us westerners). They visited the Tehran facilities last month.

No - they will not let anyone inspect their top secret facilities, just like the US refuses to allow the IAEA into their top secret facilities.

The arguement being that it is their right not to allow whoever they choose into some of their TS facilities. It's a national pride thing.

Im with you, in that the war of words should stop and dialogue should begin in earnest. Fuck national pride, and fuck this political penis measuring crap. Otherwise....well, we know what happened not a million miles from here.

[Hitcher]

Are we back on topic again yet?

[SPman]

Here's the Iranian line... The UN inspectors are already here, and never really left. They're currently inspecting the nuclear research facility in Isfahan (or Esfahan to us westerners). They visited the Tehran facilities last month. No - they will not let anyone inspect their top secret facilities, just like the US refuses to allow the IAEA into their top secret facilities. The arguement being that it is their right not to allow whoever they choose into some of their TS facilities. It's a national pride thing. Im with you, in that the war of words should stop and dialogue should begin in earnest. Fuck national pride, and fuck this political penis measuring crap. Otherwise....well, we know what happened not a million miles from here.

I thought the inspectors still had access. Iran is actually a signatory to the nuclear anti proliferation pact. Main trouble with Iran is the current president - he's a bit of a loose cannon - not as bad as Bush, but, with the Islamic guards, he tends to play the big man. At least he will talk. To Iranians, most Westerners are suspect, because they have been fucked over so much by the west, the last 150 yrs, they just want them to stop trying to stick their noses into their affairs and leave them be. Sarge, the average Iraqui is far far worse off now, than they were under Saddam - he may have been a complete arsehole, but he kept all the other local arseholes at bay. Until the Kuwait invasion and debacle and even after, Iraquis had a reasonably high standard of living - that all changed after the US led sanctions in the follow on from the Gulf war. They had one of the highest levels of university education - men and women, and one of the most westernised arab communities, with virtually no Shia/Sunni/Christian friction.And no Mullahs preaching islamic fundamentalism - ok - because he made sure they didn't. The total balls up there now is because the neocons "planned" a war, with no knowledge of how to actually go about it, didn't listen to any advice, even from their own men,the CIA, the FBI, and didn't have a clue what to do when it all turned to shit, as most people said it would, except hang in there and hope for the best. They were and are crass amateurs, playing at god, without a shred of responsibility as long as they can wield their influence and make a buck! If the only reason for going into Iraq was because Saddam was a cunt, how about all the other countries around the world, Zimbabwe for one....oops...that's right....no oil!

[Grub]

War is NOT entertainment..just turn off the TV and let us do our fucking jobs.

So your answer to debate and concern (i.e. 'demmocracy') in debating these issues is to abuse and bully those trying to make sense of this madness? I resent your abuse, I resent your bullying
- Who said it was your "job" to invade another country?
- Who said it was your "job" to ram "democracy" down everyone's throats whether they want it or not?
- Who said it was your "job" to kill residents of the land you invaded?
- Who said it was your "job" to be there at all when the reasons for being there was "an orchestrated litany of lies"

[Sniper]

So your answer to debate and concern (i.e. 'demmocracy') in debating these issues is to abuse and bully those trying to make sense of this madness? I resent your abuse, I resent your bullying
- Who said it was your "job" to invade another country?
- Who said it was your "job" to ram "democracy" down everyone's throats whether they want it or not?
- Who said it was your "job" to kill residents of the land you invaded?
- Who said it was your "job" to be there at all when the reasons for being there was "an orchestrated litany of lies"

EDIT: As you read this, I would like you to know that I never was into the politics of war. I went where I was sent and I did it with pride. The man next to me was my brother and I was his. I believed in what I was doing and I never grumbled.

I would stand back and be very careful GRUB. It wasnt SARGES decision to go. He was told to as was I and as are many soldiers around the globe. I can't remember, but I think I have seen you post up that you were in the forces, you should know the situations and feelings. Those in the forces go where they are told. They do what they need to and they have to live with the decisions they make to keep themselves alive...

I cant comment on your experiences, but mine tell me to say fuck democracy when it comes to a desision that I have to make to make sure I see my loved ones again.