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Thread: 50 survival tips - Read 'em now!

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Try reading post 88.
    As I said "without evidence to the contrary". Yes, post 88 does appear to provide exactly that.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Try reading post 88.
    I read the abstract of the cited study and two things stuck out.

    Fatal crash rates for motorcycles with ABS were compared to rates for the same models without ABS.
    i.e. Any result can only show a correlation. It cannot show any form of causation.

    The 95 percent confidence interval for this effectiveness estimate was (9 percent, 48 percent).
    Even the study itself accepts that the result may me as low as 9%.

    Conclusions: ABS is highly effective in preventing fatal motorcycle crashes.
    While I'm not trying to say that this is necessarily wrong what I am saying is that this conclusion can't be drawn from the evidence of this study. As I stated above, all that can be concluded is that there is a correlation. It is quite possible that those that choose ABS are statistically safer riders to begin.

    Once ABS is not only compulsory but ubiquitous then the above will have less weight due to buyer choice no longer being a factor. Of course then it will be too late if ABS is not the panacea it's being touted as.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by swbarnett View Post


    Even the study itself accepts that the result may me as low as 9%.

    You are not incorrect but if you are going to interpret the statistics then please tell the whole story.

    What this actually says is that there is a 5% chance that the results may be lower than 9% OR HIGHER THAN 48%

    There is a lot of information about other studies in that one too, but it's quite an onerous read.
    I may not be as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass View Post
    What this actually says is that there is a 5% chance that the results may be lower than 9% OR HIGHER THAN 48%
    Indeed, you are correct. That's why I quoted their actual wording.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass View Post
    You are not incorrect but if you are going to interpret the statistics then please tell the whole story.
    Statistics seldom (if ever) tell the full story.

    Statistics prove little ... but suggest what has been recorded in the past ... will continue into the future.

    Look how ACC have gathered their statistics to base/influence their levies demands ...
    Sweat wipes off. Road-rash doesn't.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Statistics seldom (if ever) tell the full story.

    Statistics prove little ... but suggest what has been recorded in the past ... will continue into the future.

    Look how ACC have gathered their statistics to base/influence their levies demands ...

    This really isn't the place for that discussion.
    Happy to have it, but not here
    I may not be as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was.

  7. #97
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    Thought I'd throw in my 2c concerning ABS... no stats, just personal experience.

    I had (count 'em) at least four front wheel lockups on my old GB400 and one on the 900ss. All were panic situations where I grabbed the brake in a hurry - exactly what ABS is designed for. I was extremely lucky to never crash the GB, not so lucky with the Ducati... but it was a lowside wipeout at about 10 k's. Consequences minimal. Consequences could have been a damn sight higher on the GB when I'd lost attention and nearly went in the back of a queue of traffic, as it was I ended up running into the margin of the road and only just missing the cars. 100% my fault. The front wheel lockup on that one ran for at least six meters.

    It's not straight line, defined stops where ABS counts. My experience was that you need it when you're banked over and someone (yes, sometimes it was me) does something dumb.

  8. #98
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    Very few motorbike ABS systems will work when you're leaned over.

    Front wheel lockups occur when the rider grabs the brake hard instead of easing it on as the weight transfers to the front. If you can't brake properly, then ABS won't help you that much - you'll still crash but without locking the front wheel.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkH View Post

    It looks to me like the stopping distances are pretty similar between bikes and cars despite bikes being so much lighter.
    Which leads me to suggest this for a survival tip:
    DON'T go assuming that you can brake faster than a car you are following, DO leave enough gap to allow for your reaction time.
    This would apply even if your bike has ABS.
    Porsche 911 from 60mph to stop = 94 feet

    (http://www.motortrend.com/news/22-ca...than-100-feet/)

    Yamaha R1 from 60mph to stop = 133 feet

    (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2010/0...arison-street/)

    That's a 39 foot difference ... nearly as third as much room needed by the Yam over the stretched VW ..

    Honda Accord from 60mph to stopped = 124 - 127 feet. (depends on the model - the sports model take the longest).

    http://www.motortrend.com/news/lambo...-other-models/

    So - the Honda will still out-brake an R1 ..

    The biggest advantage we have is that bike riders can probably stop their bikes faster than the average car driver .. becasuse the car drivers are generally useless ...
    "So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."

  10. #100
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    The 911 had carbon ceramic brakes and track tyres. Not really a fair comparison!

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moise View Post
    The 911 had carbon ceramic brakes and track tyres. Not really a fair comparison!
    Yes - that would be fairly obvious ... a fair comparision was not what was asked .. someone said they could not find the figures .. well there they are ..
    "So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moise View Post
    The 911 had carbon ceramic brakes and track tyres. Not really a fair comparison!
    Hard to know.

    The tyres might make a difference if they were warmed up first, but for a single stop the ceramic brakes would make little or none. They might even be a disadvantage if they weren't warmed up first.
    I may not be as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was.

  13. #103
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    What we also don't know is how the tests were done. Were any warmup stops done, etc?

    Ideally, brake tests should be between 2 speeds, eg 100 - 30, not to a stop.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moise View Post
    What we also don't know is how the tests were done. Were any warmup stops done, etc?

    Ideally, brake tests should be between 2 speeds, eg 100 - 30, not to a stop.
    Agreed but it's better than no data at all and at the least is promoting some thought and discussion. This is a safety thread after all.
    I may not be as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I always was.

  15. #105
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    All sounds to me like (a) protect your "bubble" (b) always have an escape path in mind (c) ride like everyone is out to kill you and (d) ride like everyone is out to kill you.
    I lahk to moove eet moove eet...

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    I'd hate to ever have to admit that my arse had been owned by a Princess.

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