Criticisms of CYPS?

[Ocean1]

Organisations like CYF are, or should be, the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, if a "healthy" society is doing its job. Expecting CYF to come running every time there is some instance of abuse or sub-optimal family circumstances is an unrealistic expectation. As is blaming CYF for the carnage they have to deal with on a daily basis and which, in fact, overwhelms their ability to make sense of it.

Changing this epidemic isn't CYF's responsibility. And, in typical Catch 22 mode, their ability to attract and retain competent, dedicated and motivated staff will not be enhanced until prospective social workers believe they can contribute in a manner that actually makes a difference.

This is about "us" not "them".

Is it "us" that's defined "them"? Yes we are collectively responsible for the welfare of those in our care. Who then is responsible for outcomes caused by the actions of CYF staff and officials?

It is, as you say unrealistic to expect CYF to prevent undesirable family circumstances. In fact personally I believe it's unrealistic to expect any bureaucracy to supply the sort of help their commission purports to provide.

I do however think we should expect CYF to do less harm than that which they hope to prevent, primum non nocere. Sadly, tragically, in many cases they have failed to perform even that minor grace. If you doubt that ask for a show of hands, anywhere, here for example. It's difficult to dismiss or censure any group so liberally leavened with genuine saints. It's sad that such an organisation can be nonetheless so utterly innept.

As for the fence at the top of the cliff? It's riddled with the same liberal bureaucratic worm as the ambulance. Show me an authority in a position to lead, train and protect our kids and I'll show you legislative chapter and verse and operational policy preventing them from doing exactly that. In this regard our society is far from healthy, and there lies the source of your contagion.

Enough, I had every intention of staying the hell away from this, and in fact can't contribute more with any coherence.

They could do better.
They could do a fucking sight better.

[scumdog]

Had a friend who worked for that crowd. Went in bright eyed and bushy tailed, got spat out the other end, jaded and cynical.


On top of that, ludicrous amounts of utterly meaningless paperwork, too much power in the hands of too few with a personal agenda to push, and everyone suffering burnout from a workload you wouldn't believe.

Apparently they get a lot of truely committed and caring individuals working for them with a genuine desire to make a difference, but in the end the majority get ground down by it all.

So the ones that are left are either due for sainthood fairly soon because they have stuck it out, or else shouldn't be in the job at all but are merely because they can stick it out.

Sounds awful like another Govt organisation that seems to also feature in the media for all the wrong reasons.

CYPS down here are top-notch, can't fault them and a lot go that extra mile.

[kro]

Sorry, at end of day these depts are run by people like you and me, doing a job and you cannot expect perfection.....surely imperfections are better than nothing because then the perfect parts will not happen.....

I thought my post would be misconstrued. I was in fact using something I am not a big fan of, which is sarcasm, to show the futility of the argument as a whole, bearing in mind, that these dept's are staffed with real people, with real issues of their own, and sometimes shit goes wrong.

[janno]

The whole debate about child safety and welfare in NZ (and in Aus) brings to mind the saying "it takes a whole village to raise a child".

I have very committed Christian friends who raises thousands for African villages and have in fact done tours of duty as missionaries.

However they are very scathing and derogatory about streetkids and families in crisis in their own town (Auckland).

The NIMBY syndrome? A cute little black baby in Kenya isn't going to grow up to break in to your home, bash your grandma and steal your flat screen telly?

Or get smart and tell you to fuck off?

One missionary I talked to had years of experience, but when she was posted to outback Australia the hostility, substance abuse, sexual abuse and hopelessness there sent her to a nervous breakdown.

So I do have a great deal of respect for anyone who is trying to make a difference at the end of the day.

But I also know what my husband went through in the early nineties when he split up with the mother of his children. The family court was so anti male back then, it was just unbelievable. He actually had a judge tell him "why would your ex partner lie? She has no reason to."

Umm? Using the children as weapons?

Off topic I know, but kinda the same mentality at work. Beaurocratic do-gooders and chardonnay liberals.

[yungatart]

Some years ago, friends of mine had a wee toddler who fell down the steps and bashed his head. Being caring parents, they took the wee fella to hospital for a check. Child was admitted with concussion, some Dr decided that this "could" have been as a result of abuse and called CYPS in. Fair enough!
However after completing their investigations and finding nothing untoward, they removed the child from his parents, placing him with his grandparents, because it costs the State less to place a child within a family than it does to place them in foster care.
The parents were allowed supervised access only, and the grandparents, whilst considered clued up enough to raise the child, were not considered fit to supervise the visits.
This entire family went through hell for almost 2 years, before the parents were considered reformed enought to take care of their wee boy.
Because her parents had custody, she could not call around to her Mum for some love and support, because that put her child at risk!!!
What a load of BS!! Despite a complete lack of evidence, these parents were branded as abusers after their child had a simple childhood accident.

[Sanx]

I have very committed Christian friends who raises thousands for African villages and have in fact done tours of duty as missionaries. However they are very scathing and derogatory about streetkids and families in crisis in their own town (Auckland).

And you expect sense and logic out of committed Christians? In my limited experience, I usually find that missionaries have one agenda; spreading whichever poisonous belief system they happen to follow. You only have to look at 'aid' agencies like WorldVision and Christian Aid who tie in provision of medical services to village kids getting baptised for a very real demonstration. One other aid agency, the name of which I've forgotten, boasts about how they build schools and medical clinics and install clean water supply equipment, but completely fail to mention that the very first thing they do is build a church in each town.

Care and compassion of the people they're meant to be helping is purely secondary to their main aim.

[janno]

And you expect sense and logic out of committed Christians? In my limited experience, I usually find that missionaries have one agenda; spreading whichever poisonous belief system they happen to follow. You only have to look at 'aid' agencies like WorldVision and Christian Aid who tie in provision of medical services to village kids getting baptised for a very real demonstration. One other aid agency, the name of which I've forgotten, boasts about how they build schools and medical clinics and install clean water supply equipment, but completely fail to mention that the very first thing they do is build a church in each town.

Care and compassion of the people they're meant to be helping is purely secondary to their main aim.

If I were to believe in any religion, it would be b'hai. One god with many names. Makes sense to me. But I digress . . .

[devnull]

While there may be some good social workers out there, those aren't people you ever hear about. Does nobody remember the British social workers that came out here, and we're so appalled with CYFS that one decided the U.K. wasn't so bad after all, and the other chose to work for a different govt dept.

Unlike most countries elsewhere, CYFS are not legally accountable for their actions. If you, as a parent, believe they have acted badly, you have no recourse whatsoever. I think that is something that many find unacceptable.

I'd suggest having a read of some of the stories posted at http://watchingcyfs.wordpress.com/

In particular, the story of the couple who started the site after their child died while in CYFS care. It makes for appalling reading. I don't doubt that any organisation, that cannot be called to account for its actions, wouldbehave similarly. If this system was so good, why did we need a Police Complaints Authority? Should it be scrapped? Or should something similar be put in place to give parents some legal recourse when dealing with overzealous govt officials?

[SARGE]

thanks for the thread Winston.

I have been informed that since the police were involved with my son's walkabout i WOULD be hearing from SYPS...


watch this space

Unlike most countries elsewhere, CYFS are not legally accountable for their actions. If you, as a parent, believe they have acted badly, you have no recourse whatsoever. I think that is something that many find unacceptable.

there is always a recourse mate .. you just need to be ready to accept the consequences..

[devnull]

there is always a recourse mate .. you just need to be ready to accept the consequences..

Very true mate... I was meaning recourse within the law... though the other way wouldn't bother me either if it came down to the well-being of my son

Hope it all works out for ya too...

[SARGE]

Very true mate... I was meaning recourse within the law... though the other way wouldn't bother me either if it came down to the well-being of my son

Hope it all works out for ya too...

i have always been told


" violence doesn't solve anything ..."


you'd be surprised at how much it really DOES solve..

[Winston001]

Interesting. There is some really genuine anger here.

IMHO CYF staff are always caught between a rock and a hard place. A social worker has to make a judgement upon which hangs the future welfare of a child. Get it wrong and..................well, various posts here are the result.

My experience has been on the periphery of CYF involvement, and only once or twice a year over 25 years. I cannot think of a case where they got it wrong. In fact the families where they intervene were so dysfunctional that it seemed merciful to remove the children.

Having said that, I wasn't the child. It must feel confusing and even damaging to be taken away from your parent(s). And foster parents mean well but they can't all be Mother Teresa - they have to cope with some pretty wild kids.

[Winston001]

For what it is worth, modern child welfare theory says that leaving children with their family is the best and first option. If the parents can't cope, get them support including other family members, and keep an eye them. Teachers are a valuable source of independent information.

So children aren't removed holus bolus from families these days but it is a recent change.

I need to point out that there is a strong contrary view ie. that deliberately leaving children where they are neglected and abused is simply wrong. There just aren't enough social workers etc to fully supervise all situations.

[NotaGoth]

Some people have had their good experiences and others have had their bad... I realize that.. Awesome to hear that there are times when they have actually removed a child with good reason...

But then there are the cases where is no good reason at all...

Personally I have seen my own bad case, and that is as a CHILD sitting back in frustration watching all this finger pointing and accusations going on at very loving parents who did everything for us kids..... Because one child ran off the rails suddenly my parents were labelled as child abusers, and unfit parents.. Even to the point we were taken into rooms on our own and questioned and grilled by people telling us that they know our parents hit us and that its ok to tell them, they said they wouldn't tell anyone if we told them.. Like what the hell??????.. What a fucking crock of shit.. To a young child thats brainwashing.. Lets pressure the child til they crack and tell us a load of bullshit just so that we'll leave them alone... As a child you end up not knowing truth from reality when your left in a room with someone like that.... THAT IS DANGEROUS in my mind..

.. I'll stick to not wanting anything to do with them and not recommending them... As others will also do...

Its just like going to a hospital.. Sometimes you walk away unhappy with how you have been treated.. Sometimes you don't.. We are all entitled to our own opinion.. Wether it be from word of mouth, or our own personal experiences

[janno]

Even to the point we were taken into rooms on our own and questioned and grilled by people telling us that they know our parents hit us and that its ok to tell them, they said they wouldn't tell anyone if we told them.. Like what the hell??????..

Woah! That sounds like a nightmare!!

I sincerely hope that doesn't go on anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still the way they operate.

Maybe in a few years time there'll be a huge public scandal, like the abuse in the religious orphanages and homes in the 1950s that is only coming to light now.

I suppose part of the difficulty is that children are involved, and most kids are not really able to stand up and say "this isn't right".