Not even this bit?
I didn't mean to imply that Robert thinks that other people aren't good enough. My understanding was that he thought that other people think they're not good enough. And I think I just about admitted that *I* don't think I'm good enough to warrant spending "Ohlins money", confirming his theory.The other big misconception is that Ohlins is a high end racing product and ''Im not fast enough for one of those''
Yes, that's pretty much what I got from his post. I expressed a qualified agreement with his "buy local" sentiment, too.From my experience of Robert, he is an active thinker. I reckon he is trying to draw people's attention to the implications of how they purchase goods.
I don't believe I can afford it.It doesn't matter if a bike is 15-20 years old,it will benefit from quality, well set up suspension. Try it, you'll like it
I've heard as much, and I know that plenty good folks here are talking from experience.
Thing is, I'm not looking to modify my bike, except in the very limited sense that I have a damaged fork spring that I'd like to replace before it puts me in hospital. If OE Kawasaki springs were reasonably priced (and last time I checked, they weren't) I'd be replacing old for new. If someone here had a pair of springs or forks or springs they could sell me that were in decent nick, I'd be buying them.
But, given that it's proving problematic buying second hand, and that OE parts are prohibitively expensive, it comes down to buying a third party brand that I've heard good things about. And I figure that if I'm going to replace the pair up front, I might as well spring (ho-ho) for a rear too.
Heh. I could do with the help. I wonder how far from my desk I'd have to run before I was happy with the look?Your new suit will not only look better on you it will make your arse look smaller as those following will be further away.
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Another alternative is to get a springmaker to make a set of replacement springs. Do both sides, so they match. Search the site, someone did it a while back and it was surprisingly cheap. They can use your old spring as a pattern, or give them the sizes and required spring rate.
All bikes I have had bar my GSXR750L (whcih had good OEM suspension) and my B120 (first bike, no money or kowledge) have had replacement shocks at the least. It has been money well spent, although I have never had Ohlins stuff, mainly because a lot of the shocks were second hand - gotta luv Ebay. THus far the list is Koni (x2), EMC, Quandrant Dynamics, WP, Progressive, with Racetec and Progressive springs on a couple. Mr Taylor and Ohlins woudl be on the top of the list if I had the need and the dollars at the same time.
Geoff
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) Peace through superior firepower...
Build your own dyno - PM me for the link of if you want to use it (bring beer)
A pair of Ohlins linear rate fork springs and a linear rear shock spring will total substanially less than NZ$500, very often we may have suitable second hand rear shock springs. If you are interested then please contact me 06 2784160 or robert@northwest.co.nz Note that any suspension supplier that cares about what they are selling will ask the riders personal height, weight, application and most typical loading situation etc.
Why do I say linear? Because there is progressivity already built into the rear linkage on that bike, all of the very very top suspension manufacturers i.e Ohlins, WP and Penske all use linear rate springs in monoshocks. These guys have a lot more resources, experience and success than the ''purple'' guys. Leads me to think this is just a marketing exercise to suit mass sales to the less than enquiring. Ditto for the front end, given our often nasty roads the last thing you want in the front end are progressive springs, in fact there is a very strong case to say the action should be semi digressive.
To be fair to Ohlins, I checked out Demon Tweeks' website (in the UK) and they're selling Ohlins fork springs within 10% of what they're selling Hyperpro. That surprised me. Pleasantly. I am obviously a tool of the dog-house makers.
I am and I will.very often we may have suitable second hand rear shock springs. If you are interested then please contact me 06 2784160 or robert@northwest.co.nz
"Short," "fat" and "riding badly," respectively.Note that any suspension supplier that cares about what they are selling will ask the riders personal height, weight, application
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The down side of fitting linear springs you actually have to know what you are doing to select the correct spring rate for a particular rider, usage, and bike combo to get a good result.
However with progressive springs you don't have to have any idea about the weight of the rider, how the bike is used or suchlike as at some point in the bikes suspension travel the rate will be correct for a brief instant and somewhere from not so good to truly diabolical everywhere else.
The "big names" in suspension avoid progressive one size fits all springs like the plague. Unfortunately progressive springs are a band aid used in low end rubbish to hide how truly horrible the products damping / performance is, as they have blown all of the budget making it look like a cheap whore, oops I mean trick.
The other mainstay of the progressive spring is the OEM suspension suppliers, used simply so the the suspension will give marginal to adequate performance over the widest possible range of rider sizes, and more importantly weights.
Not surprisingly a considerable improvement can be had on any OEM suspension fitted with progressive springs (read almost all) by simply replacing the same with the correct rate of linear spring for your situation.
Unless you have the variable weight of Opreah go get the not inconsiderable benefits of having the right rate of spring fitted rather than play around with one size fits all, because it doesn't in practice.
Lets not even cover the rapid degradation of some lesser brand springs that the paint cracks and falls off when fitting it for the first time or worse in service that sag out quickly......
" A picture says a thousand WORDS ! "
SENSEI PERFORMANCE TUNING
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" QUICKER THAN YOU SLOWER THAN ME "
I only get two words from that picture Sensei...
STEAL ME![]()
TDC actually stated it very well, even though he embellished his remarks with a little brutality. The sad thing is many will beleive the marketing hype and fit progressive springs into the forks of their bikes. A little corporal named Adolf Hitler ran a very effective marketing campaign for a few years that got a lot of people onside for a while, most of us all know the rest. The point is he and his thugs pioneered techniques that to this day are used in the political and commercial world. Reading magazines can also be misleading as very often reports are mindful of continuing to attract advertising revenue. Caveat emptor!
Many modern bikes including SV650, ER6, lots of Triumph models etc are equipped with damper rod forks, analogous with fixed orifice damping. A pair of holes drilled in the bottom reaches of the damper rods are supposed to handle damping duties at all fork velocities. 75% of the problem with these types of fork is woeful hydraulic control!!!! At very low fork velocity the forks feel soft and mushy, when you hit the brakes they ''blow through their stroke'' / dive too readily causing sudden weight transfer and machine instability. BUT, when you ride over an abrupt edge bump the damping holes ''choke off'' / peak out in flow rate too early causing a jackhammer effect back through the handlebars. Sound familiar? Installation of a pair of progressive springs will by and large not ''skin the cat'' properly as the action is soft during the first part of compression and firms up very quickly.
The correct thing to do is to first sort out what is causing 75% of the problem, the hydraulics! What we do is to overdrill the damping holes so that they no longer provide a huge restriction to flow at high fork velocities. Combine that with a product called ''Emulators''. These have a small bypass bleed hole to control the fork at low velocities when riding across ''smooth'' ( ! ) bumps. This results in a higher dynamic ride height as the bike is now more hydraulically controlled, as opposed to almost no low speed control. And because the bike is riding higher the fork springs are less precompressed giving a plusher ride. When you hit the brakes the bike no longer dives at too fast a rate, it is smooth and controlled. Over abrupt bumps a spring preloaded poppet valve on the emulator lifts ( it is speed sensitive ) to allow appropriate flow to absorb the bump and give a much more comfortable ride. The improvement is so substanial that many bumps that were previously conciously avoided can be ridden over with little fuss.
With some machines the springs will indeed need changing to match rider height, weight and application. We fit only linear springs because given our often nasty roads the action certainly does not want to progressively firm up too quickly. To take care of lower reaches of stroke bottoming resistance we use springs that are already in the forks! The trapped air volume above the set oil level. Within sensible limits if you reduce the air volume ( by raising oil level ) there will be a higher end air pressure ( secondary spring effect ) at maximum compression. I.e easily tunable end of stroke progressivity.
If you have fitted progressive springs chances are you will not be struck with them, but you will be stuck with them.
Note that when we fit emulators we process the damper rods a little differently to the enclosed instructions otherwise you end up with a dead area of damping, we also very often change the poppet springs to a different rate. In deference to ''Cowpoos'' post there are indeed charts and lists for such things as spring rate selection but these should only be regarded as a rough guide. We have many third world roads that in fact require a different setting technique in spring selection and damping internals. I think there is a danger in beleiving that because this information comes from overseas they are ''gods'' and it must be right. Experience very often proves otherwise. And asking racers very often doesnt give the right answers as per the Craig Shirriffs example the other day ( wheel balancing ) These are not the guys that go inside forks and shocks.
Cartridge forks, just because the marketing hype says they have them dont neccessarily beleive they will work like a properly engineered cartridge fork! Heck, a number of Chinese bikes have got cartridge forks only. Big lesson here...engineered by accountants! Paul Thede from Race Tech has got this saying '' the best youve ridden is the best you know'' Sadly many will think mediocrity is great. More of that and worse is on the menu as cheaper and cheaper ways of making things are found and the Chinese ''strangle'' us even more.....
Ditto for rear monoshocks. By and large these are combined with a linkage that has a rising rate effect. As the shock gets deeper into its stroke the linkage accelerates the shock shaft faster which means firmer damping. This to achieve a modicum of bottoming out resistance and dynamic ride height control. So why in the hell would you fit a progressive spring? I can quote an extreme example, the 1996-98 GSXR750, the linkage in that bike ramped up in rate so quickly that at approximately half stroke if you then hit an abrupt bump the shock would basically go into hydraulic lock. Imagine combining that with a progressive spring.....The Ohlins shocks we have built for this model use a high flow piston, but even then we try and achieve a ''digressive'' action ( direct opposite to progressive ) to get it to work through the lower reaches of stroke, plus a few tricks with rebound valving to keep the shock higher in its stroke, working in the more compliant part of the linkage. Of course spring rate still has to be fudamentally correct for the individual rider and overall loading, all of the quality shock manufacturers equip with linear rate springs.
In fairness there is a happy home for progressive springs, on twin shock bikes because there is little rising rate effect. But again, the ''product cheapening department'' is in full action.
On oem twin shocks and many of the cheap and cheerful twin shocks so often quoted there is absolutely no compression damping, note that this is a technique also employed in many mass market car shocks. This is to save the cost of developing a properly engineered compression damping curve for each model, particular to the ''motion ratio'' applied to it. Instead they will use a progressive spring with a very aggressive wind so it ramps up in rate very quickly. To achieve some modicum of ride height control the springs will be very heavily preloaded, this can be as much as 40mm. Because of these two factors the rebound damping needs to be very firm to control it. Very firm damping means lots of heat, resulting in fade when ridden at speed over bumpy roads. If any of these shocks are fitted with external damping adjusters it invariably only controls bypass bleed and will not change the fundamental character of the shocks. As one customer put it to me ''dial a backache shocks'' You only get what you pay for.....an inscription on a product I recently viewed reads ''The bitterness of poor quality lasts much longer than the sweetness of low price''
Quality shock manufacturers such as Ohlins AB Sweden spend a lot of time with every single individual model developing a spec that works properly, they have no interest in mass market ''one size fit all'' products. High quality materials with very exacting tolerances minimise friction, an area of suspension work that many dont consider as important as it really is. Casey Stoners Ohlins forks have a 16 stage nitriding and polishing process on the tubes to minimise friction to the nth degree.
Much much more emphasis is placed on developing the internal damping spec to arrange a proper compression damping curve, That in turn allows softer spring rates with no loss of dynamic ride height control and machine stability, but bump absorption and ride quality will be greatly enhanced. And, the softer springing will allow a much less aggressive rebound damping curve. That gives better traction ( and tyre life ) as the wheel / tyre will react downwards into road hollows more readily. Ohlins twin shocks very often will have progressive springs, but in fact the progression is very subtle. On the many that I have tested the springs are effectively linear in rate for the first 75 - 80% of travel and only ramp up in rate a little at the final stage for assistance in bottoming out resistance. Because, as I earlier said twin shock installations have relatively little rising rate effect
So, in light of all of the above one can surmise what sort of valving is installed into single shocks that are delivered with progressive springs....
The local spring winders do indeed make a very nice job at a surprisingly low price. BUT ( and I stand to be corrected on this ) none of them use spring steel of a good enough quality. That means they sack out very quickly.
The two best sources of high quality steel for manuacturing springs appears to be Germany and Sweden. If anyone does indeed know of a local spring winder using only the best materail I would love to hear from you.
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