The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[Robert Taylor]

I wondered the same thing! Apparently (for example) GSXR1000 outers are physically pretty good, so by the time you've junked the cartridges and springs (not the cheapest thing to have done, but apparently extremely effective), they're essentially as good as Ohlins R&T forks. Of course, the Ohlins R&T forks aren't that much more expensive by the time you've fitted the Ohlins cartridge kits.

There appears to be other intangible benefits though that are worth contemplating... the Ohlins R&T forks let you swap around caliper mounts, of course the Aprilia ones don't let you do that, but like the R&T ones, they do let you replace the axle holder separately from the lower tube, which might save you $$$ one day. Then there's sex appeal... can you really put a price on that?

Ill come back to you guys with a full reply tonight, suffice to say that there are a few ''swings and roundabouts'' And I also need to reply to your e-mail about SV forks.....

[GSVR]

I suppose the most obvious reason for just doing the internals is for production racing thats all your allowed to do.

[imdying]

I suppose the most obvious reason for just doing the internals is for production racing thats all your allowed to do.

I did wonder that, but I don't know enough about product racing to add much useful... do they allow replacement cartridges? (and how would they know?)

[k14]

I did wonder that, but I don't know enough about product racing to add much useful... do they allow replacement cartridges? (and how would they know?)

Both supersport and superbike (for NZ anyway) allow replacing the fork internals but I'm pretty sure you have to run the stock externals. The only classes you're allowed free reign on the front ends are F3 and 125.

[Robert Taylor]

Ill come back to you guys with a full reply tonight, suffice to say that there are a few ''swings and roundabouts'' And I also need to reply to your e-mail about SV forks.....

Yes, all the litre and 600 class sportbikes have exterior tubes that are a whole lot better than in years past, but as I see it with a major caveat...they are now so minimalist in wall thickness and light weight they actually deflect by an incredible amount under hard braking. That causes stiction, given that the main bending moment is under the main triple clamp and the load bearing bushings are displaced under and above that triple clamp. On a handful of higher mileage examples I have also evidenced a loss of tight fit between the lower tubes and the castings they screw into.

MotoGP and WSBK forks are if anything headed in the opposite direction, the sizes of the tubes, design and materials chosen afford a whole load more rigidity under braking and load, reducing stiction / friction. Flex is introduced elsewhere, be it in the design of the triple clamps ( and the very clamping itself ) and the frame.

The cartridges inside these oem production forks are ''sight unseen'' and in previous posts I have explained the major misalignment issues and resultant friction etc etc. Also the wafer veneer of the friction reducing coatings, far removed from the 16 stage process on genuine MotoGP / WSBK race forks.

In answering questions about Ohlins R & T forks they are much more solidly constructed with thicker walls and much more rigidity, that means better braking performance and less stiction. Just those factors alone mean a more compliant action, people in general majorly underestimate just how much friction reduction is a key part of suspension tuning. The caveat of course with these more rigid forks being a little more weight.

The cartridges in these forks are smack bang on the same centreline of the main tubes, the cartridge tubes are actually round and true etc etc . Ohlins always ''push'' the word precision, that and the results are no idle claims. But, candidly the internal settings can be improved further for our often very rough poorly surfaced roads. As NZ represents only 0.06% of the worlds population it would be naive to expect any manufacturer to have settings developed specifically for us. That reinforces why people that distribute technical products should be TOTALLY technically conversant with these products and proactive in optimising for market conditions. Again I would say, it is just not good enough to just flog off product.....

The production racing rules in this country mirror those of many other developed western countries, the outer tubes of the forks must remain oem but you are allowed to change the internals to aftermarket. Given the major precision issues with many of the oem fork internals that is a good thing.

It wont have escaped everyones attention that in Australia last season and for part of this season Yamaha Motor Australia raced 06 production YZFR1SP's which have oem Ohlins R & T forks fitted. But even R & T forks are built to a price. They were further equipped with ''out of the catalogue'' Ohlins racing cartridge inserts. Race bike results are the ''sum of all their parts'' but it is reasonable to surmise that their racetrack success was assisted by the performance of these forks.

If anyone wants a set of gas charged TTX concept forks ( part Number FGR800 ) legal for their F3 bike I am happy to accept pre-orders. Half down ( $7500 ) and remaining half on delivery.( !!!! )

[Robert Taylor]

Same goes for me........a great thread,as someone afflicted with a mod at all costs disease i find it particually interesting...ive an old TLS1000 that i just cant stop mucking about with...ive gone with a hagon rear damper..not in ohlins league so i keep hearing and alot cheaper but definately an improvement on the oem rear damper idea..ive recently bought a set of busa forks set up for a TLR in the states by traxxion dynamics..spelling..and am looking forward to seeing how they perform,what caught my eye was the brakes attached to them.Yea i know it would be easier and wiser to buy a new bike but this is just so much fun.as i say an awsome thread and i for one am enjoying it.oh and no i didnt bother buying the discs...

Hey thanks guys, if I say anything that is wrong I dont at all mind being challenged on it and falling on my sword. I have a few interesting subjects, but as time permits.

[Robert Taylor]

Mr Taylor ... have you an opinion on the effectiveness of Honda's electronic steering damper?

The update on this is that we found cavitation on the Suzuki damper and replaced it

[Sensei]

So to cut along story short Robert , The Japanese fork will be greatly improved with your Ohlins internals but still will have tube flex which will course stiction & reduced feel , where as my Ohlins forks with the Mod that you have done for Daves Tuono forks just last week will give the best results & feel be it road or track . Which reminds me i must have you do a service on them & Mod them when ya have a window open in ya busy work load

[limbimtimwim]

Robert, what is the best way to mount a steering damper? Ducati style? Suzuki style (Hiding down there)? Or old-school attached to the frame and a fork-leg style?

And why?

[Robert Taylor]

So to cut along story short Robert , The Japanese fork will be greatly improved with your Ohlins internals but still will have tube flex which will course stiction & reduced feel , where as my Ohlins forks with the Mod that you have done for Daves Tuono forks just last week will give the best results & feel be it road or track . Which reminds me i must have you do a service on them & Mod them when ya have a window open in ya busy work load

Hmmm...you have stated in relatively few words what I wrote a friggin novel about!

[boomer]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?


ps.. this thread is like rocking horse shit..PRICELESS!

[Sensei]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?

Look baby Windmill read Roberts post above or my shortend version . Put ya hand in your pocket & get some $$$$$$$ & get Robert to put some Ohlins gear into your new Shitter problem solved

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, what is the best way to mount a steering damper? Ducati style? Suzuki style (Hiding down there)? Or old-school attached to the frame and a fork-leg style?

And why?

This is a mixed bag of lollies.

Transverse mount is relatively crashproof, especially where Suzuki favour mounting them just forward of the lower triple clamp.

The ''hey look at me'' transverse ones with elaborate fitting brackets mounted inbetween the forward part of the tank and top triple clamp are to my mind a pain in the butt. Another series of fiddly bits for a race mechanic to remove when he has to inevitably access under the petrol tank. And when these are decorated in the gawdy colours of a cheap tart they frankly look terrible! Far better to have subtle, elegant colours and good sound engineering and function, just like the girl next door. Arguably a little more crashproof than sidemount but it depends on the type of crash. More expensive to purchase because of the fitting appendages and therefore more expensive to replace. I seriously have to wonder what percentage of the sales is to in part make a fashion statement.

Compared to a sidemount damper the short stroke, squat transverse type dampers have to provide a lot of damping within a very short stroke, for the same amount of handlebar arc movement. That means it is doubly important that there is no cavitation when alternating between stroke directions. Because of the high force within short stroke criteria of such dampers the service intervals are neccessarily closer. Asuuming of course you have a damper that is designed to be serviced and that the distributor is committed enough to have full and proper service back up.

Conversely a sidemount damper will for the same amount of handlebar arc movement do its damping over a much longer stroke. It is much easier to modulate a larger volume of flow. The minus is being less crashproof, just ask racer number 37!

On a purely technical / best function criteria I always personally prefer sidemount. I have recently obliquely been accused of being too helpful with information over this forum so I may as well also be accused of promoting steering dampers that are more likely to need replacing after race crashes!

From the Ohlins perspective the adjustment needles in the transverse dampers are a solid type with a slow taper to help control the high damping force required. The specific sidemount ones have much the same needle but it is cross drilled with a bypass hole through it as there is much more mass flow in such an installation. As this damper will cycle at higher shaft velocity more damping is naturally created, neccessitating the bypass bleed.

Now here is something a little perverse. It has recently come to my attention that the Ohlins steering damper fitted as oem to the 06 onwards ZX10 is not the same animal as the aftermarket Ohlins damper for the ZX10. When the oem damper is closed off at zero clicks out it has approximately the same damping force as the aftermarket example at about 8-9 clicks out, with I suspect a much less progressive damping characteristic. At zero click outs the oem one is virtually locked up, when you have the damper only in your hand. ( i.e less leverage ) I am reading between the lines here but I suspect that KHI were especially gunshy about product liability / people crashing. Especially in the States where some drug taking brain dead Johnie wiil crank the damper up, go for a ride, crash and then hire a money grubbing lawyer the next day.

What Ohlins have done in response to KHIs specific request for less damping is to fit the cross drilled sidemount specific needle into the transverse damper. We know, because we compared an oem and aftermarket Ohlins side by side..

The really sick thing is that in the States ''five minute experts'' on chat forums are suggesting really stupid fixes like filling with much heavier grades of oil etc. So the intention of KHI is in practice counter-productive. There are in fact several different part numbers for these needles and right now we have a unit under test with one of these needle options. Needles for stock are on the way.

The Ohlins steering damper is without argument impossible to service properly without the specific service tools and frankly, a trip to Sweden to learn the finer points of doing it. But it is the best performing and most reliable damper out there.
Simply dont attempt to service it yourself, if someone says they can service it ask them if they are the people who have the only service kit in the country....

Another final concern is the refitment of transverse steering dampers to a later and different model using the much fabled ''kiwi ingenuity'' I have seen some shocking installations where the working arc is somewhat obtuse and the engineering very ''caveman'' And then if it doesnt work properly the product is maligned rather than the dodgy installation.

Hope this helps.....

[boomer]

Look baby Windmill read Roberts post above or my shortend version . Put ya hand in your pocket & get some $$$$$$$ & get Robert to put some Ohlins gear into your new Shitter problem solved

indeed it would be problem solved however i'd like to understand what he found out over the last week or so playing with jimmy i aint no supersport rider, merely a wanna be

i know the stock steering damper should be removed post haste and used as a pretend gun for my 5 year old but am i gonna have to give him 2 pretend rocket launchers as well???

hows things with you anyway fatty? life treatin ya well!

[Sanx]

The really sick thing is that in the States ''five minute experts'' on chat forums are suggesting really stupid fixes like filling with much heavier grades of oil etc. So the intention of KHI is in practice counter-productive. There are in fact several different part numbers for these needles and right now we have a unit under test with one of these needle options. Needles for stock are on the way.

Funny you should mention the five-minute experts. After your comment earlier about the Suzuki electronic steering damper, I did a quick google for "'steering damper' ohlins cbr1000rr" and the first hit took me to a short thread on a Fireblade site where someone had asked roughly the same question as I did. Except the response there went something along the lines of "Honda's HESD is the shit! I very much doubt Ohlins or Scott have the same resources Honda have to develop steering dampers".

Laughable really. Especially considering your comment about Honda's factory race teams junking the HESD unit and fitting an Ohlins one.