The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[riffer]

I have recently obliquely been accused of being too helpful with information over this forum.

No such thing mate. I don't believe anything you are doing here is putting your business in jeopardy; quite the contrary in fact.

[Pussy]

How much difference, Robert, to the stock Aprillia or Ohlins R&T cartridges, to the aftermarket Ohlins cartridge kits for Showa or Kayaba forks? Are they the same technology? A matter of interest

[Pussy]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?


ps.. this thread is like rocking horse shit..PRICELESS!

Hey, Boomer, I had a set of Ohlins cartridges in my K4 and K6 1000. I can highly recommend them, even for road riding. With the tight manufacturing tolerances in them, they ARE round, and the damper rod DOES run concentric to the cartridge body. They have a very smooth action, with no perceptable stiction. Robert put a set of Kayaba cartridges in a set if vee blocks and rotated them.... the runout was clearly visible to the naked eye... not good for smooth action. My 5c worth

[Robert Taylor]

Mr Taylor good Sir, I understand you spent a fair amount of your precious time looking after Jimmy fast pants and his new rocket ship.. i don't suppose you've had chance or the inclination to look at the stockers you ripped of and maybe have some comments, pointers or guides as to how, if at all, they could be improved upon?


ps.. this thread is like rocking horse shit..PRICELESS!

That is so, it is essentially ''roughed out'' but that is on one track only under relatively low grip conditions and with stock horsepower. More chassis twisting torque, more temps and more available grip will require further work. There is NEVER a perfect setting.

To be honest we pretty much dont look at the stock stuff but I noted that the cartridges are still 20mm whereas the new 07 R1 are 25mm. To that end I think the 20mm Ohlins pistons we used in Sams R6 last year ( final piston type used, we raced with 4 different types ) would be the ticket for the stock cartridges. These pistons have enough flow area for decent square edge bump absorption but also enough progressivity in the port flow rate to allow for decent brake dive resistance.

We fitted Ohlins 25mm race cartridges in the front, these have a new midvalve technique that ''builds'' damping response much faster than a conventional design. Also the high speed compression adjuster is removed as the response range is rather poor, but great for marketing! It is replaced with a small bleed single clicker part.

In the rear Ohlins TTX36 which also provides instant damping response compared to a conventional ''damping build up after the event by shaft displacement shock'' Again, no high speed damping adjustment.

Ohlins are certainly very successfully working and developing this approach and if there is one thing that had dawned on me quite recently it is far more important/ ''everything'' to have excellent low speed damping control at the very outset of damper shaft movement, in fact instantaneous. TDC previously stated it very well, with conventional damping it is happening ''after the event'', as he put it you are trying to arrest a runaway train. With instantaneous damping you can actually have less overall damping giving benefits in sidegrip and off corner traction. Arguably that rather negates the need to have a high speed compression adjuster, a device that sets the velocity at which oil dumps / bypasses, because there is too much damping anyway, determined by the need to arrest the runaway train. ( kind of hope that makes some sense)

The best is yet to come from these shocks, we are still learning from them and the function and setting is very very different to conventional, more so than I first realised. People unfamiliar / untrained with them and dare I say those driven by whatever motives are almost certain to stuff up the performance. I dont in any way say this to protect my business, they take a LOT of understanding. ALSO, they are very very difficult to bleed and a number of special tools are required, totally specific to these.

The electronic streering damper was tested but it very soon became apparent that it was cavitating on stroke oscillation, so it was removed and a trusty Ohllins pressurised one fitted.

That is my engineers perspective, the rider may be worth asking.

[Robert Taylor]

indeed it would be problem solved however i'd like to understand what he found out over the last week or so playing with jimmy i aint no supersport rider, merely a wanna be

i know the stock steering damper should be removed post haste and used as a pretend gun for my 5 year old but am i gonna have to give him 2 pretend rocket launchers as well???

hows things with you anyway fatty? life treatin ya well!

Im not even a rider, but could probably lap faster than the guy on the pink SV....

[Robert Taylor]

Funny you should mention the five-minute experts. After your comment earlier about the Suzuki electronic steering damper, I did a quick google for "'steering damper' ohlins cbr1000rr" and the first hit took me to a short thread on a Fireblade site where someone had asked roughly the same question as I did. Except the response there went something along the lines of "Honda's HESD is the shit! I very much doubt Ohlins or Scott have the same resources Honda have to develop steering dampers".

Laughable really. Especially considering your comment about Honda's factory race teams junking the HESD unit and fitting an Ohlins one.

Ohlins actually make the Scotts steering damper, approximately 10,000 a year. Scotts make their own fitting kits.

In all fairness there is nothing wrong with the basic concept of the electronic steering damper, just the application of it. So much engineering is bastardised by accountants.

[boomer]

thanks Pussy/RT.. i need to read this in the morning when i can understand and digest it; although im sure Sensei will have paraphrased ya by then and made it all clear that i need to spend my cash

[Brian d marge]

Ohlins actually make the Scotts steering damper, approximately 10,000 a year. Scotts make their own fitting kits.

In all fairness there is nothing wrong with the basic concept of the electronic steering damper, just the application of it. So much engineering is bastardised by accountants.

Aint that the truth !!!

lots of point in this thread I want to reply to , expand upon ,,, but Every time I check here Im either Pissed ( again ) at work ,, or just plain tired
theres lots of thinking to be thunk here ,,,

Motogp , flex is one of them ,,,the Gresini team have good handling bikes on the brakes and I cant remember which team , just bought triple clamps and front end from America to solve that on the brakes Stabability

[sAsLEX]

The ''hey look at me' factor . I seriously have to wonder what percentage of the sales is to in part make a fashion statement.

Oh OHLINS get a fair smack of money from those that know the brand and just have the $$ to put them on their bike.



The really sick thing is that in the States ''five minute experts'' on chat forums are suggesting really stupid fixes like filling with much heavier grades of oil etc. So the intention of KHI is in practice counter-productive. There are in fact several different part numbers for these needles and right now we have a unit under test with one of these needle options. Needles for stock are on the way.
Just fill the hole you mention with Sellys Knead it.............




Dont that was a pt.....

. .

[White trash]

That is my engineers perspective, the rider may be worth asking.

It started off alright, Robert and Ohlins made it bloody spectacular!

Also, keep ya fork tubes clean and chuck the stock steering damper in the bin.

[imdying]

It started off alright, Robert and Ohlins made it bloody spectacular!

Also, keep ya fork tubes clean and chuck the stock steering damper in the bin.

So what madness did you have done to your racebike?

[Robert Taylor]

How much difference, Robert, to the stock Aprillia or Ohlins R&T cartridges, to the aftermarket Ohlins cartridge kits for Showa or Kayaba forks? Are they the same technology? A matter of interest

It is fair to say that the stock internal cartridges in the R&T forks are built to a price ceiling as they dont use the more exotic materials. But having said that the tubes are round and straight and everything is concentric with the centreline. i.e there is no compromise on precision and therefore function and minimalisation of stiction and friction. There are internal top out springs etc but the fixtures are manufactured more cost effectively.

Ohlins also like any company are ''cursed with accountants'' ( apologies to any accountants reading this! ) but they are top heavy with engineers and their decisions prevail.

The FGK cartridges are top level with top level materials and designed in such a way to facilitate reasonably quick trackside internal setting changes. There is a plethora of alternative internal and external setting parts options. Moreover Ohlins have a setting bank database that distributors can access online with a password protected distributor only website. This setting bank provides the alternative internal shim stack changes and the resultant dyno curves overlayed. We have been working with this very recently and the concept is working awesome.

Just the ease of changing the springs in these cartridges is wonderful.

As eluded to in a previous post Yamaha Motor Australia ran these FGK cartridge kits in the Ohlins R&T suspended front ends on their 06 YZFR1SPs, to devastating effect.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey, Boomer, I had a set of Ohlins cartridges in my K4 and K6 1000. I can highly recommend them, even for road riding. With the tight manufacturing tolerances in them, they ARE round, and the damper rod DOES run concentric to the cartridge body. They have a very smooth action, with no perceptable stiction. Robert put a set of Kayaba cartridges in a set if vee blocks and rotated them.... the runout was clearly visible to the naked eye... not good for smooth action. My 5c worth

The 07 KYB cartridges still exhibit that same horrible friction enhancing runout.

[Robert Taylor]

. .

Granted, but I think it is more agreeable to look at a sophisticated elegant woman wearing a ballgown, as opposed to lamb masquerading as mutton, plastered with too much gawdy mascara...

Understated but very functional as the budget is spent on the engineering.

I vehemently disagree with your suggestion to ''knead it'' the bypass hole. You know as well as I do that successful application of any epoxy type products is dependent on surface preparation / cleanliness ( removal of oil residue etc ) and the care of the person applying it.

What if the stuff dislodged and blocked the bleed hole, potentially causing a crash? Would you want that on your conscience? I know I certainly wouldnt.

I have priced these replacement needles this morning, which incidentally also have a slightly different taper. $16.70 including grab, steal and take. Why would you risk it for such a small sum, probably similiar to or less than the purchase price of a stick of knead it.

[Robert Taylor]

It started off alright, Robert and Ohlins made it bloody spectacular!

Also, keep ya fork tubes clean and chuck the stock steering damper in the bin.

Thanks for that but dont forget Kerry who turned up to help me. His phd level brain provided a very valuable contribution and definitely foreshortened arriving at a raceable initial set up very very quickly.