The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[Robert Taylor]

As I read it there are "japolin knock offs" for rear shocks but not for front forks? If those piccy's can't show what you mean I guess it must be pretty minor...

Anyhow just curious...

''Japolin knock offs'' for a very very limited number of domestic market only Yamahas, never intended for export out of Japan. Rear twin shocks ONLY. In our little motorcycle world this issue is very minor. ( Cars a seperate issue )I very transparently pointed it out so that people were not effectively misled. Japolin shaft size 12.5mm, genuine Swedish 12mm. Chalk and cheese in all respects.

Sorry if this sounds abrupt but I think I just might be the most informed person in NZ re this.....END.

[Pixie]

Robert, replacing the rear shock is a relatively simple matter on most bikes, but is it then a big (and expensive) deal mating it with some uprated front suspension? MY VFR800 has fairly low-budget Showa suspension, and 44K miles on the odometer. While I can get a replacement rear shock that will improve the back end, what do I do with the front? Cartridge emulators, the right weight/volume of oil and better springs?

I know some VFR owners have replaced the forks with CBR600RR or VTR1000 lowers and fitted new springs, or even gone to R1 or SP1/SP2 USD forks, but none of these options is easy here, with good replacement forks being hard to get hold of and relatively expensive.

Do this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...t=52932&page=2

Or get Robert to do it for you

[Robert Taylor]

Do this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...t=52932&page=2

Or get Robert to do it for you

I STRONGLY disagree with this sort of work being done by anyone other than experienced, knowledgable dedicated proffessionals with full and proper equipment, and I mean a serious investment. People that are doing this sort of work all the time and are prepared to back it up. On the face of it, it may appear to be easy to do ( and will be for some ). I am not saying that people are stupid but there are a lot of finer points , precautions and knowledge borne of experience that are not detailed in fitting instructions.

Just yesterday I sorted out some forks that had Race Tech internals fitted with standard suggested settings that just did not work, the job was also appalling, I see this sort of thing all the time. The sad thing is the guy had been to a Race Tech seminar and was an ''instant expert'' at fitting kits! In reality it only gives you an insight and the Diplomas recognise attendance more than anything. Cold, hard fact.

EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING. I dont wish to engage in a protracted forum war re this matter. Suffice to say I am doing the lions share of road / road race suspension work at the sharp end and Pixie Im sorry for this worn out old cliche..... Ive seen inside more fork and shock units than most people have had hot dinners!

When I get the time and inclination I will be submitting a post exposing the negatives that are happening in what really is a specialist field, that sadly is bastardised by a few people with big hammers and few clues. Having originally come from an aircraft engineering background there is a saying ''you cannot park an aircraft on a cloud'' So I make no apologies for having a very condescending view of work that is not done as it should be.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Do this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...t=52932&page=2

Or get Robert to do it for you

Good for you for doing it yourself, but I looked at that picture and thought: "Nah". Its just too much for my limited talents. I will ride better and faster if I know Ive sent the stuff off to an expert rather than thinking as my knee begins to skim the tarmac "Wonder if I tightened that widget properly"? or "What about those leftover bits sitting on the bench?"

I have come to realise the limits of my talents and finally to have the money to pay people to do what they do. Maybe wisdom does come with age?

[Robert Taylor]

Good for you for doing it yourself, but I looked at that picture and thought: "Nah". Its just too much for my limited talents. I will ride better and faster if I know Ive sent the stuff off to an expert rather than thinking as my knee begins to skim the tarmac "Wonder if I tightened that widget properly"? or "What about those leftover bits sitting on the bench?"

I have come to realise the limits of my talents and finally to have the money to pay people to do what they do. Maybe wisdom does come with age?

Well said that man! My two teenage daughters are typical of same, they think they are bulletproof and know everything. My standard retort ''I'm too old to know everything'' Their boyfriend choices need a little guidance....!

I think it better for one to concentrate on what one does best, work at accruing income from that and leave specialist jobs to the experts, especially where ones safety ( and those around you ) is at stake. After all, Im not going to perform open heart surgery with a set of instructions at my side.

While its kind of admirable to say ''have a go yourself'' such a statement pays little credence to the real world reality that in fact the highest percentage of kits that are fitted privately are not done so properly and the performance is often very short of what is possible. ( I am not saying that there arent people out there who can do a great job.) At the risk of being on a ''hit list'' ( probably am already ) this argument is just as applicable to asking a mechanic who has either never performed this work before or does so only ''once in a blue moon''. Anyone who challenges this statement to the contrary will know they are being a little economical with the truth.

I really have a problem with the ''Kiwi can do'' myth, a cliche from simpler times. This is not like laying concrete with your mates, this is about messing with settings in low flying guided missiles with the potential to maim and kill. Not so very long ago a young racer paralysed himself because he was riding a bike with external adjustments made to it that were a seriously bad call. He now has the rest of his life to reflect on that. That parrallells drink driving or suffering from the brain wasting effects of illegal mind altering substances.

As I eluded to in my previous post experience is everything and so is having the investment in the right equipment to do so. Technically, many of the oem forks ( and shocks ) we see today are not actually designed to be modified. Very often when kits are being fitted a lathe and great care is required to optimise fitting clearances and deflection limits etc for correct function. There are also a whole plethora of special holding tools, adaptors etc that make the job much easier and quicker. I think it also helps to have come from a background of formal training and qualification where detailed processing skills, precision, quality control and great fussiness are paramount.

Proffessionals have this equipment, many self proclaimed suspension experts have very little equipment or a database of knowledge and experience. And will try and parasite such knowledge from those who have properly invested. To that end its worth asking searching questions ( I will post a list in the future ) As for myself I can lay claim to 25 years experience, a huge arsenal of suspension tools and a sophisticated suspension dyno. This dyno has been a point of reference and a ''verifier'' for nearly 4 years and has been used to develop many specs from plush road use to National championship winning road race. Further to that 7 trips to Sweden where arguably the acknowledged masters of suspension are based, 2 trips to the US and 2 to Italy ( other suspension companies ). And I can pick up a phone and talk directly to the same guy who designs the suspension units for MotoGP, as used by Teams Ducati, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki. I think that is a serious level of commitment and investment. And the people who I second to carry out my overspill of work have a totally transparent working relationship.

The Race Tech fork kits work well only if the settings are optimised properly for our local mix of roads that are somewhat less smooth than in Southern California where the stuff is made. For example we change the emulator settings and process the modifications to the damper rods a little differently, as we found a flaw in the way Race Tech suggests it. With respect to the customised on line valving specs it has to be remembered that the settings are focused more towards smoother roads so you are by no means getting the optimum setting. IMPROVEMENT IS A TERM OF RELATIVITY. And I also have a problem with another highly mis-used word, ''perfect''. There is no perfect setting!

Such kits need expert work ( and a database of empirical knowledge ) to make them work acceptably in NZ conditions. Race Tech fail to address one of the biggest problems with many oem forks i.e poor rebound control in part because of rebound needles that are often short squat ''on / off'' plugs with a very short response range. The old GSXR1000 K1/2/3 are notorious for this and it is rare to be more than 3 - 5 clicks out. To that end we have been making appropriately tapered needles for many forks for a number of years and in fact fitted a set to the forks I mentioned in my last post. This issue I am addressing with Race Tech when I visit them in October.

Having read many posts and often being in the field I am of the opinion that the safety issues are regarded too casually.

[Shaun]

Robert, thankyou for the discount. I have just read this thread

When will you be naming the agents on here that you reccomend then

Have a nice day

[Pixie]

Good for you for doing it yourself, but I looked at that picture and thought: "Nah". Its just too much for my limited talents. I will ride better and faster if I know Ive sent the stuff off to an expert rather than thinking as my knee begins to skim the tarmac "Wonder if I tightened that widget properly"? or "What about those leftover bits sitting on the bench?"

I have come to realise the limits of my talents and finally to have the money to pay people to do what they do. Maybe wisdom does come with age?

Which is why I posted the pics.
As dirty Harry said "A man has got to know his limitations"
However, if an individual knows that he is skilled,meticulous,and is not afraid to ask for all the information he can get,there is always the option of performing the task himself.

I gave RaceTech more info than they require about the bike and the roads I ride and I am very pleased with the settings they recommended.
Yesterday I found I was drawn to bumpy bends rather than trying to avoid the bumps.
This included badly corrugated tar seal on sweeping bends.
Ultimately if you do the job yourself you are responsible for you own safety.
Robert's opininion may be coloured by having to rectify too many "good ol' kiwi can do" butchery jobs. And I agree the majority are butchers.I know this from personal observation.

Don't worry I won't be offering my services in competition with the existing suspension experts.
- I get paid too much in my real job.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, thankyou for the discount. I have just read this thread

When will you be naming the agents on here that you reccomend then

Have a nice day

I can name these very capable service agents at will but wasnt trying to be blatantly commercial. As I see it this is also a site of goodwill ( for ALL kiwibikers? ) and I'd be a little averse to blatantly pushing my own barrow at every given opportunity.

If someone is good at their job and / or has a good product I will reccommend them. But, conversely I will also have little compunction in condemning dodgy practices / advice, so long as I am 110% sure of my facts.

If someone asks me a question on this forum I will endeavour to answer it and certainly the response has been favourable. If people can understand the dynamics of suspension a little better then that arguably leads to commercial opportunities anyhow.

Thankyou for the text messages, maybe you should publish them ?( exactly as per my own record ) on this forum so there can be totally transparent and open discussion about where a line is drawn in the sand. I.e, about where you stop offering people advice and when it becomes commercial. Or keeping it largely secretive as I beleive you are inferring. There have been some very good posts on this forum ( and of course some dodgy ones ) But it is clear that people are responsive and appreciative of knowledge and open discussion. I really appreciate the people that respond who are subjective and reasoning with their questions, rather than pushing an ego or similiar.

If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

If on the other hand you would like me to continue with interesting subject matter then I am happy to oblige, as time permits.

BTW, met a number of regular contributors to KB this last weekend at Manfield, great people.

[Robert Taylor]

Which is why I posted the pics.
As dirty Harry said "A man has got to know his limitations"
However, if an individual knows that he is skilled,meticulous,and is not afraid to ask for all the information he can get,there is always the option of performing the task himself.

I gave RaceTech more info than they require about the bike and the roads I ride and I am very pleased with the settings they recommended.
Yesterday I found I was drawn to bumpy bends rather than trying to avoid the bumps.
This included badly corrugated tar seal on sweeping bends.
Ultimately if you do the job yourself you are responsible for you own safety.
Robert's opininion may be coloured by having to rectify too many "good ol' kiwi can do" butchery jobs. And I agree the majority are butchers.I know this from personal observation.



Don't worry I won't be offering my services in competition with the existing suspension experts.
- I get paid too much in my real job.

Thanks, overall I think you have reinforced what I was trying to say. And it is clear that you were on top of your game when you went through this exercise. You have clearly tried to understand suspension and achieved your objectives. Many would prefer that it is largely secretive but my intent is Quality of installation / performance and Safety being paramount.

[k14]

If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

If on the other hand you would like me to continue with interesting subject matter then I am happy to oblige, as time permits.

BTW, met a number of regular contributors to KB this last weekend at Manfield, great people.

Yes please. More more more. This stuff is gold. You should write a book on this stuff, I'm sure it would sell very well.

[Pumba]

Yes please. More more more. This stuff is gold.

+1

This thread has been the best, most inforative thread I have ever read on KB, without doubt.

[Kickaha]

If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

If on the other hand you would like me to continue with interesting subject matter then I am happy to oblige, as time permits.

I for one appreciate all that you've posted and long may it continue, it has been both interesting and informative

[98tls]

Same goes for me........a great thread,as someone afflicted with a mod at all costs disease i find it particually interesting...ive an old TLS1000 that i just cant stop mucking about with...ive gone with a hagon rear damper..not in ohlins league so i keep hearing and alot cheaper but definately an improvement on the oem rear damper idea..ive recently bought a set of busa forks set up for a TLR in the states by traxxion dynamics..spelling..and am looking forward to seeing how they perform,what caught my eye was the brakes attached to them.Yea i know it would be easier and wiser to buy a new bike but this is just so much fun.as i say an awsome thread and i for one am enjoying it.oh and no i didnt bother buying the discs...

[Sensei]

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor
If anyone else out there doesnt like the technical discussions that I have published on this site then please say so now.

The only people that wouldn't be happy with what you have to say Robert would be someone that has been fooling others on here that they are a so called suspension Specialist . Could you answer this for me would a fully kitted Jap fork with Ohlins internals be as good/better than a genuine set of Ohlins fork like on my Aprilia if both where set for our conditions & roads .

[imdying]

Could you answer this for me would a fully kitted Jap fork with Ohlins internals be as good/better than a genuine set of Ohlins fork like on my Aprilia if both where set for our conditions & roads .

I wondered the same thing! Apparently (for example) GSXR1000 outers are physically pretty good, so by the time you've junked the cartridges and springs (not the cheapest thing to have done, but apparently extremely effective), they're essentially as good as Ohlins R&T forks. Of course, the Ohlins R&T forks aren't that much more expensive by the time you've fitted the Ohlins cartridge kits.

There appears to be other intangible benefits though that are worth contemplating... the Ohlins R&T forks let you swap around caliper mounts, of course the Aprilia ones don't let you do that, but like the R&T ones, they do let you replace the axle holder separately from the lower tube, which might save you $$$ one day. Then there's sex appeal... can you really put a price on that?