The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[Paul in NZ]

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Paul, after deciding whether the linkages are servicable a full measure up will determine if the spring rates are ''in the window'' or otherwise for you.

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Excellent info thanks... I can't thank you enough for being so helpful. What a wonderful resource KB is eh?

The PLAN (constantly under review) is to make sure all the effort in getting the rolling heap this far is not wasted by wrecking the engine through over rich fueling (a better than even chance) - that means a dyno session which destroys my rebuild budget BUT will finish off the great unknown... and then - it's KB ride unveiling....

Then - I'll start down the suspension track if time, money and my loverly wife allow ... um darling.. sweetie....

[Paul in NZ]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.

Or 10 mins of WT use...

[White trash]

Or 10 mins of WT use...

Nah, I'm pretty soft on rear shocks mate. Fork seals seem to take a pounding for some reason.......

[Drew]

Nah, I'm pretty soft on rear shocks mate. Fork seals seem to take a pounding for some reason.......

Leavin the front wheel on the ground seems to be keeping mine intact bro.

Stunt bike is pretty much built on that note, any advice on wether or not to have some expensive bouncy bits in it?

The cheapest rear shock I have found is a Hagen, and although I'm sure it wont be anywhere near as good as an Ohlins, it aint a race bike, it just needs a moderate damping affect that I can tune a tad for one wheel stability all below 50kph

[Robert Taylor]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.

Thats pretty much correct, for NZ conditions realistically once per annum. BUT beware of imitations! Not everyone that services shocks is authorised to service Ohlins. Irrespective of lines that may be spun there are a few specific precautions and techniques when servicing. I have a number of people around the country who I trust implicitly to do this work.

[Cajun]

Cool thanks Robert/Jimmy.

On average how long would you think a ohlins shock would last, if it was serviced regularlly?

[TDC]

Cool thanks Robert/Jimmy.

On average how long would you think a ohlins shock would last, if it was serviced regularlly?

Because ALL of the parts are available there is no limit to the life of the shock. But having said that with regular servicing that usually just involves normal service parts (seals, fluids, piston rings, and the likes) several hundred thousand K's would not be stretch at all.

[slowpoke]

According to the TTX36 Superdooper owners manual, every 10 hours if racing or 30,000km street use.

Hmmm, I would have thought that 30,000km's of bumpy, shitty NZ roads would be way more abusive than 10 hours of hooning around a relatively smooth race track.......but maybe it's more to do with the different performance expectations related to the different applications.

My "problem" now is my bike feels great! The poor old thing has been confined to barracks for a few months now as several engine woes have been sorted out. I've just gotten it back so I went through a basic suspension setting exercise (set sag, tweaked damping) and the thing feels pretty bloody good. As a point of interest the info supplied here was very helpful, with a reduction in rebound damping giving a much more supple feel to the suspension.

Working away from home the bike only does a few thousand klicks a year but I know that the suspension has done way more than 10 hours race use. (before ya start, I know I'm slow so it doesn't count as racing but the guy who had it before me was quick, orright? lol) So, do I get everything serviced and be forced to go through the exercise of finding a comparative sweet spot again? Does it only feel good now because it was shite before? Will it feel noticeably better after a service?

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm stuck offshore with no alcohol to help me answer them.....

[cowpoos]

my bike feels great!

I was sure that you didn't own the mighty R1 race bike???

[slowpoke]

I was sure that you didn't own the mighty R1 race bike???

Orright, orright, technically speaking it's my missus bike....or are you referring to a rather animated conversation I had with my bank manager last week?

[bimotabob]

HI Robert

I know how much you hate it when someone violates suspension and leaves it dangerous - this is what happened to a mate recently:

He was complaining that the front responded badly and since one of his seals was leaking prematurely we disassembled the fork and found the threaded rod that screws into the top fork cover had dropped out so that fork had no dampening.
We suspect someone has had the springs out before and not tightened the lock nut.
It turns out the other side was the same but we had changed that fork already as the chrome had worn through and my mate had got another pair.

It now handles a lot better with 100% instead of 50%

We also put in genuine seals this time and they haven't leaked like the athena ones we fitted earlier (and they were Japanese made)

- This bike didn't have the long tiny rods slid inside it operated by the top rebound screw like my last bike with KYB USD forks, how does the top screw change the dampening rebound rate? (an air bleed??) We did ask a bike mechanic and he said they should be there but both sets we have no not have them.


I'm a firm believer that buying a safe 2nd hand bike is like a lucky dip.
In your words Robert It's that "kiwi can do" mentality rearing it's head again.

[Robert Taylor]

Hmmm, I would have thought that 30,000km's of bumpy, shitty NZ roads would be way more abusive than 10 hours of hooning around a relatively smooth race track.......but maybe it's more to do with the different performance expectations related to the different applications.

My "problem" now is my bike feels great! The poor old thing has been confined to barracks for a few months now as several engine woes have been sorted out. I've just gotten it back so I went through a basic suspension setting exercise (set sag, tweaked damping) and the thing feels pretty bloody good. As a point of interest the info supplied here was very helpful, with a reduction in rebound damping giving a much more supple feel to the suspension.

Working away from home the bike only does a few thousand klicks a year but I know that the suspension has done way more than 10 hours race use. (before ya start, I know I'm slow so it doesn't count as racing but the guy who had it before me was quick, orright? lol) So, do I get everything serviced and be forced to go through the exercise of finding a comparative sweet spot again? Does it only feel good now because it was shite before? Will it feel noticeably better after a service?

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm stuck offshore with no alcohol to help me answer them.....

Swings and roundabouts. For example a motocross shock undergoes approximately 17,000 compression cycles every lap on a typical motocross track. And for peak performance should get serviced every 10 hours. The right rear shock in the local Toyota Racing Series cars runs approx 15 degrees higher than the left rear because it is right near the muffler. Its temperature will peak into 3 figures and the oil capacity in these shocks is less than 200mls. Service every season.

A shock with very stiff damping calibration that still uses a lot of stroke will run a lot hotter than a softly valved shock and will wear out its oil faster.

A few years back we built a heavy duty shock for an ex US Army Colonel who landed on our doorstep. He took his BMW across rough roads through India, Russia, all over the place. Last I heard from him was 2 years ago, he had done over 80,000 miles and hadnt had it serviced. But I dont reccommend such intervals! Degradation is much slower in a ''seperating gas piston'' shock with high quality materials and precise tolerancing. As opposed to an oem mass produced gas permeable bladder shock with lees exact tolerancing etc.

If the spring preload and the clickers are restored to their current setting ( by the authorised technician ) then the performance should be essentially similiar, allowing for fresh oil.

If you get it serviced by an ''imitator'' ( and there are too many of those ) it is likely to

1) Have the gas piston position set incorrectly leading to too much end of stroke gas pressure rise. Also incorrect gas pressure.

2) Inappropriate and cheaper oil of the incorrect centistroke rating ( I dont even look at sae ratings / weight as it is almost total bu.....t ) and flow characteristics at low and higher temperature extremes. Shorter life.

3) Key wear parts ( that are actually inexpensive ) not replaced. O rings from the local engineering supply shop that are not actually exactly the correct size and very often are charged at higher than Ohlins retail price!

4) Not privy to the special precautions and specific areas to check that I inform my service agents about, who are prepared to invest in the right equipment and service parts inventory. Inattention to detail. Every authorised Ohlins service agent cross references the shock to a spec card, specifically for it. Inter-communication is totally transparent

5) An expensive job because they took longer than someone specifically trained OR a cheap job because they cut corners that shouldnt be cut.

Someone in another post said I dont suffer fools, what I dont suffer is poor workmanship and MISREPRESENTATION. Is there anything wrong with that?

I dont have the capacity at present to service this shock myself, but if you can pm me I will direct you.

[TDC]

4) Not privy to the special precautions and specific areas to check that I inform my service agents about, who are prepared to invest in the right equipment and service parts inventory. Inattention to detail. Every authorised Ohlins service agent cross references the shock to a spec card, specifically for it. Inter-communication is totally transparent

5) An expensive job because they took longer than someone specifically trained OR a cheap job because they cut corners that shouldnt be cut.

Someone in another post said I dont suffer fools, what I dont suffer is poor workmanship and MISREPRESENTATION. Is there anything wrong with that?

A while ago I was talking to a guy running an Öhlins rear shock, his comments worried me a bit when he said that it was quite good but wasn't very reliable as the shaft seal needed frequent replacement. After a bit more discussion I learned that the shaft seal lasted about 5 - 6K's before leaking again.

I offered to service the shock and tendered a price for the same, he declined pointing out that I was twice the price of where he was getting the work done. I offered to put in writing on the invoice that if the shaft seal leaked again within 20k's I would replace it at no charge, including removal and refitting to the bike, eventually I got his business.

When I dismantled the shock I found the shaft seal was not the genuine Öhlins part (a viton quad ring) but a buna 'o' ring that can be purchased from any engineering shop (not even the right size!) With the over sized 'o'ring fitted shaft friction was huge with a worn out seal I can only guess how it must have been when first assembled. Worse there is a nylon 66 spacer that the shaft seal buts up against, the replacement "seal" was fitted on the wrong side of this spacer! The reason that the seal had probably failed in the first place is that the shaft dust seal had worn out. The oil was the wrong viscosity, and to compensate some shims had been removed to allow for the wrong oil that was too thick.

After returning the shock back to factory specifications (shims) from the spec card and fitting the correct shaft seal (in the correct place), fitting a new dust seal (not available to non Öhlins agents) cleaning out the oil which was quite a job as it had reacted with the remainder of the Öhlins oil and formed a difficult to remove very tenacious white sludge on absolutely everything, mandating a complete strip and painstaking clean of everything, and replacing all of the seals as they had been attacked by the white sludge and filling with the correct quantity of the correct oil, the shock was finally as it should be!

When fitted to the bike and adjusted the customer came to pick the bike up. I explained to him about the cost overruns over the estimate and the reasons for the same, I provided him with digital images of the shock internals before and after as well as a sample of the white sludge on a shim that I replaced rather than attempted to clean.

He was not pleased about the bill and reminded me that he would be back soon for the free shaft seal because he put lots of miles on the bike with all his commuting.

Two days later he called up saying the shock worked just like it did when he purchased the bike with an Öhlins shock already fitted, he had calmed down a bit. He then told of how he had been told by the other person that worked on the shock that the Öhlins shock wears out just as fast as a stock shock and thats why it would be different once rebuilt. This was simply not true and an obvious excuse by the other party to knowingly cover up the deficiencies in their work!

Now the bike is approaching 20k's on the last shock rebuild (detailed above) and will be back for service soon (within the next 3 months), and he has not been able to collect on a single one of his free shaft seal replacements, as they have simply not been needed.

So was correct servicing twice the price of the lower cost alternative, sure if you take a single item view of the world. If you look at the long tern view it was half the price of the low cost option.

All too often people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Cheap jobs or poor workmanship can be really expensive in more was than the obvious.....

[Robert Taylor]

A while ago I was talking to a guy running an Öhlins rear shock, his comments worried me a bit when he said that it was quite good but wasn't very reliable as the shaft seal needed frequent replacement. After a bit more discussion I learned that the shaft seal lasted about 5 - 6K's before leaking again.

I offered to service the shock and tendered a price for the same, he declined pointing out that I was twice the price of where he was getting the work done. I offered to put in writing on the invoice that if the shaft seal leaked again within 20k's I would replace it at no charge, including removal and refitting to the bike, eventually I got his business.

When I dismantled the shock I found the shaft seal was not the genuine Öhlins part (a viton quad ring) but a buna 'o' ring that can be purchased from any engineering shop (not even the right size!) With the over sized 'o'ring fitted shaft friction was huge with a worn out seal I can only guess how it must have been when first assembled. Worse there is a nylon 66 spacer that the shaft seal buts up against, the replacement "seal" was fitted on the wrong side of this spacer! The reason that the seal had probably failed in the first place is that the shaft dust seal had worn out. The oil was the wrong viscosity, and to compensate some shims had been removed to allow for the wrong oil that was too thick.

After returning the shock back to factory specifications (shims) from the spec card and fitting the correct shaft seal (in the correct place), fitting a new dust seal (not available to non Öhlins agents) cleaning out the oil which was quite a job as it had reacted with the remainder of the Öhlins oil and formed a difficult to remove very tenacious white sludge on absolutely everything, mandating a complete strip and painstaking clean of everything, and replacing all of the seals as they had been attacked by the white sludge and filling with the correct quantity of the correct oil, the shock was finally as it should be!

When fitted to the bike and adjusted the customer came to pick the bike up. I explained to him about the cost overruns over the estimate and the reasons for the same, I provided him with digital images of the shock internals before and after as well as a sample of the white sludge on a shim that I replaced rather than attempted to clean.

He was not pleased about the bill and reminded me that he would be back soon for the free shaft seal because he put lots of miles on the bike with all his commuting.

Two days later he called up saying the shock worked just like it did when he purchased the bike with an Öhlins shock already fitted, he had calmed down a bit. He then told of how he had been told by the other person that worked on the shock that the Öhlins shock wears out just as fast as a stock shock and thats why it would be different once rebuilt. This was simply not true and an obvious excuse by the other party to knowingly cover up the deficiencies in their work!

Now the bike is approaching 20k's on the last shock rebuild (detailed above) and will be back for service soon (within the next 3 months), and he has not been able to collect on a single one of his free shaft seal replacements, as they have simply not been needed.

So was correct servicing twice the price of the lower cost alternative, sure if you take a single item view of the world. If you look at the long tern view it was half the price of the low cost option.

All too often people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Cheap jobs or poor workmanship can be really expensive in more was than the obvious.....

A partially self inflicted victim of the ''cheap is best'' mentality? To quote someone elses devastatingly true saying ''The bitterness of poor quality lasts much longer than the sweetness of low price'' A news story last night on the recall of a number of Chinese made toys was very interesting, and frankly not surprising.

That there are people who are also in effect very misrepresentative of their true abilities and are prepared to tell absolute fairy tales is very disturbing.

[RiderInBlack]

Ya tells of the darkside of suspension maintenance just confirms what I have always maintain re: bike maintenance and mechanics:
With the risks of riding bikes capable of what they can do now (even my old CBR1000F has a top of 260kpm), ya can't afford to put ya trust in poor workmanship for the sake of saving a bit of money. A bad mechanic can laterally get ya killed. Find a mechanic ya can trust and is open with the work they do on ya bike, and pay them their fair due. They can save ya life.