The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[Robert Taylor]

I would be very very surprised if the Repco cheapies were the same brand and overall spec. But if Im wrong so be it. Yes, a lot of pricing doesnt indeed stack up.

As for supply chains ex factories the sheer volume they shift would be massive. But the biggest single problem is that a small distributor in a small country just cannot stock everything. Especially as we still want all the trappings of the Western world, and the market is further complicated with an enormous number of variations of import models. If they havent got the parts in stock then the pressure is on. Factories are geared to supplying volume to their distributors, not one off small shipments every second of the day. That I can fully understand even if many arent prepared to even begin to understand that side of the equation.

Having said that I can have parts sent from a relatively small manufacturer in Stockholm ( Ohlins ) on a Friday and have them here the following Tuesday, if someone is in a big rush. But that does incur a bit of a freight penalty. Because we provide service none of the NZ distributors who import bikes fitted oem with Ohlins stock Ohlins parts. In fact they can purchase Ohlins parts off me more cost effectively because I deal direct with Ohlins as the manufacturer.

And yes there is a place for specialists because you cannot accumulate experience overnight. But evidence another post about a guy fitting LED indicators ( in the electrical section ) The people who sold him these should have been upfront and told him that the bulb wattages in these indicators were not compatible with the standard flasher relay. Either very poor product knowledge, just didnt know or just didnt care. Frankly, that is just not good enough.

[Robert Taylor]

NGK is NGK is it not, as they where, just that through the local Honda Dealer they were more.

Think about this, I buy about 20 -30 Ohlins mx rotary steering dampers off Ohlins per annum, Scotts in the USA buy 10,000. Who gets the better buy price? Between Repco ( a big trans tasman chain ) and a small motorcycle dealer the same applies. While as I previously said there are some huge anomolies, it is rather too easy to slag motorcycle dealers without digging into the reasons, whys and wherefores. Over and out

[Robert Taylor]

Are you sure?
I know that BMW NZ get their NGK plugs from BMW AG. I'm assuming Honda would use a similar system.

Most of the time I will buy Genuine bike parts from the dealer, but I will always shop around, and if I can get the same part, in the same box, Why would I pay more? there's only so much aftersales service one can have on an oil filter, or set of spark plugs, and to a lesser degree brake pads.

Don't Ohlins make, distribute, and sell aftermarket parts?

Yes Ohlins do make and distribute aftermarket parts ( stating the obvious as you well realise ) They also make oem for many manufacturers and supply all the MotoGP teams as oem ( except Honda ) Indy car, Aussie V8s, Le Mans cars etc etc. And you cannot be an Ohlins distributor without providing a very high level of technical backup.

[GSVR]

Goes along with my thoughts that just because something is OEM doesn't mean its going to be best. Vehicle makers try to save money just like anyone else.

Are spacesaver wheels made that way to save space in the vehicle or is it a cost cutting measure so cars can be produced cheaper?

Sometimes you just have to use the reacommended part. I know of one Kiwibiker who did his own oilchange on a new GSXR1000 while it was still under warranty and when it blew up he had no comeback and had to pay for the repairs out of his own pocket. Moral of the story here is get your oil changes done by the dealer while still under warranty.

Why don't standard GSXR shocks have a choice of springs and why can't Suzuki make them as good as Ohlins. After all this bikes meant to be at the cutting edge of performance. Or so the adds imply.

Own the racetrack (after upgradeing all the substandard bits on this bike?)

[GSVR]

You answered your own question. See here:

So what makes an Ohlins shock better than a STD GSXR one?

The Ohlins costs more to make due to lower production numbers and heaps of R&D. Or you get better after sales service.

Did I answer my own question again?


Wow OEM parts must be budget parts!

[Robert Taylor]

You answered your own question. See here:

And exactly the reason Yamaha Motor Co dont equip many of their models with Ohlins shocks standard, cost. Despite the fact they own approximately 90% of Ohlins.

Not to be confused with the Yamaha Japanese import twin shock models that have found their way to these shores with ''Ohlins shocks'' on them. These are not the real deal high quality high performance Swedish models. They are a Japanese domestic market only ''Ohlins label'' shock built by Soqi Japan and only work properly with 60kg short ( ie japanese ) riders. The parts are very different, if they have 12.5mm shafts rather than 12mm then it is Japanese. Aside from the fact they dont look like real Swedish Ohlins. It looks like Yamaha Motor effectively said to Ohlins, ''we are doing this and it is out of your hands'' Thankfully they dont interfere in the day to day running of the genuine Swedish operation.

So how is that for transparent honesty ? Thankfully the numbers that have found their way here are relatively light.

Many Japanese import cars also have ''Japohlins'' fitted.

Marketing is truly perverse and it fools a lot of people a lot of the time. Keep relentlessly telling people ''half truths'' or even brazen lies and many will blindly beleive without question.

This thread has certainly had lots of interest and a polarising effect.

[Robert Taylor]

So what makes an Ohlins shock better than a STD GSXR one?

The Ohlins costs more to make due to lower production numbers and heaps of R&D. Or you get better after sales service.

Did I answer my own question again?


Wow OEM parts must be budget parts!

Plus higher quality materials and very precise tolerancing. Every shock is individually developed for every individual model, etc

[TDC]

Why don't standard GSXR shocks have a choice of springs and why can't Suzuki make them as good as Ohlins. After all this bikes meant to be at the cutting edge of performance. Or so the adds imply.

Own the racetrack (after upgradeing all the substandard bits on this bike?)

I think there is an answer to your question that has been overlooked, its a good question.

The Jap designers have a horrible number of constraints placed on them when designing the suspension for a new model. Lets for a moment forget about the accounts favorite cry "I don't care how well it works its too expensive".

The designers of a modern bike have to engineer in an acceptable level of performance for ALL rider and passenger weight and height combinations, AND all road conditions and surfaces, AND will work with any round black thing fitted, AND will not exhibit any excessively dangerous traits with ANY of these combinations least the lawyers have a field day.

So in short the stock suspension is designed to be somewhere between average and acceptable over a staggeringly wide range of variables. It simply can't be even close to good anywhere cause it will screw up the performance at another part of the range. Having said that they do a fabulous job given what they have to work with, and don't forget the marketing dept and the accountants!!!

When you go to a suspension tuner for a shock, he will ask you all kinds of questions like, "What do you weigh", and "How Tall are you", and "Do you carry passengers", "What tyres do you run" (Yes there is a difference between the best setup for different brands of Tyres), "What type of riding do you do, etc etc

See what is going on here? The list of compromises is shrinking by a considerable margin. All of sudden you are getting a product matched to your personal requirements, rather than the general requirements of the worlds bike buying population, as well as the roads ranging from billiard table smooth to goat tracks. Then fire the accountant and throw the better quality components back in to the mix, execute at dawn the marketing dept (who will if given a chance down grade the innards of the shock to cover the cost of having the latest fashion color applied to the rear spring), and these are the reasons that the difference between stock and quality after market is so significant for riders of all skill levels.

Why don't the manufactures have a choice of spring rates etc, imaging you are 6' 5" and weigh 130Kg and go to buy your latest sports bike item of desire, and are told "we only bring in two over tall high weight range bikes per year and they are all gone!"..... Don't even think about the second hand sales nightmare!!

Spose I could have simply said the two reasons are compromise, compromise, and yet more compromises....

[imdying]

Wow OEM parts must be budget parts!

Yep, they are... made to a specification, on a budget. Thing is though, there's 'pretty' aftermarket parts that are made to looser specifications, on an even tighter budget.

[TDC]

Yep, they are... made to a specification, on a budget. Thing is though, there's 'pretty' aftermarket parts that are made to looser specifications, on an even tighter budget.

Ain't that truth!

A modern Jap alloy bodied shock is past its best by as little as 15K's on some models and by 25K's almost all are past their use by date.

Then you consider that some of the shiny / sexy on the outside shit on the inside models are effectively worn out in as little as 10K's.

An Öhlins shock recommended service interval is 20K's (for street use) and at this time there is almost unmeasurable levels of performance degradation, prior to servicing.

When you consider the alarmingly short life spans of the "pretty" shocks (lets not even touch punitive profit margins), and the quality of the "so called expensive" Öhlins shocks, the whole price performance / value for money calculation does not even begin to stack up for one of the options, even though at first glance.....

[imdying]

When you consider the alarmingly short life spans of the "pretty" shocks (lets not even touch punitive profit margins), and the quality of the "so called expensive" Öhlins shocks, the whole price performance / value for money calculation does not even begin to stack up for one of the options, even though at first glance.....

All of this talk makes me want to buy some Ohlins forks, this topic must cease at once

[Robert Taylor]

Ain't that truth!

A modern Jap alloy bodied shock is past its best by as little as 15K's on some models and by 25K's almost all are past their use by date.

Then you consider that some of the shiny / sexy on the outside shit on the inside models are effectively worn out in as little as 10K's.

An Öhlins shock recommended service interval is 20K's (for street use) and at this time there is almost unmeasurable levels of performance degradation, prior to servicing.

When you consider the alarmingly short life spans of the "pretty" shocks (lets not even touch punitive profit margins), and the quality of the "so called expensive" Öhlins shocks, the whole price performance / value for money calculation does not even begin to stack up for one of the options, even though at first glance.....

Ho hum....and this started as an oil filter thread!

TDC is correct no matter how unpleasant it may sound to some. But what is unpleasant to my mind is the number of people that will say ''yeah we can service your Ohlins shock'' No formal training, no tools to do the job properly, incorrect specification oil, no experience etc. Misrepresentation, and they are playing with your personal safety.

Point of fact I have 5 proper suspension technicians spread across the country who I entrust to do this work and converse closely and transparently with them. No egos, no bull...t, just get in and do the job properly.

[F5 Dave]

And exactly the reason Yamaha Motor Co dont equip many of their models with Ohlins shocks standard, cost. Despite the fact they own approximately 90% of Ohlins.
.

Well they'd be crazy to stop people buying a new shock from their sister company.

Interesting about the 12mm vs 12.5 shaft size, I should go home & measure the shock on my YZF750SP (bought it off Steve Lloyd many moons ago). These were in later years sold with an Ohlins labelled rear shock but made in Japan apparently.

However when I got mine revalved the tech said they were a reasonably faithful copy & looked up the Ohlins application recommended shims & fitted them. However he did need to machine the piston slightly so the highspeed comp shim could move. Made a stella difference. Shock body was reputably great at 30k.

[Robert Taylor]

Well they'd be crazy to stop people buying a new shock from their sister company.

Interesting about the 12mm vs 12.5 shaft size, I should go home & measure the shock on my YZF750SP (bought it off Steve Lloyd many moons ago). These were in later years sold with an Ohlins labelled rear shock but made in Japan apparently.

However when I got mine revalved the tech said they were a reasonably faithful copy & looked up the Ohlins application recommended shims & fitted them. However he did need to machine the piston slightly so the highspeed comp shim could move. Made a stella difference. Shock body was reputably great at 30k.

I was referring to twin shocks. The likely shaft size on your single shock is likely either 12.5 or 14mm, still different to the genuine Ohlins of same vintage at 16mm. For the same stroke the Ohlins shaft would move more fluid therefore building damping faster. As I also recall the body tube is steel on the SP shock so wear characteristic would be infinitely slower than the non hard anodised alloy example on the cheaper YZF variation at the time. 20,000 or so ks and the cheaper shocks would be so badly internally worn that there would be no damping mid stroke. Exacerbated by a virgin alloy internal wearing surface ''junking'' the shock oil very very quickly.

It is true that the SP shock at that time had an oem shock much closer to Ohlins technology , but much closer still means it was miles away. No-one at top level overseas raced with the standard shock.

In the intervening years the Japanese manufacturers have found cheaper ways of making shocks while Ohlins have done what they have always done, kept making better and better performing shocks. Function not being subservient to price.

To reinforce why Yamaha do not equip their bikes standard with Ohlins....cost, cost, cost. They are competing with other bike manufacturers on price. Not for the cynical reason inferred. Showa / KYB etc also make factory level high quality / high technology / high performance shocks. But not available to the general public like Ohlins do.

And anyone who thinks the high speed compression adjusters appearing on a number of oem shocks and forks is sadly mistaken if they think they actually work like such a device is supposed to.....

[cowpoos]

So what makes an Ohlins shock better than a STD GSXR one?

simple...the ohlins is in everyway possible a better spring damper!!!
Especially if setup for your weight,bike,conditions,race/road,etc

The Ohlins costs more

do they...get a quote from a suzuki deraler for a say...umm...gsx-r 750 k6 shock...and Robert...what would the replacement Ohlins cost?