Libel

**Robert Taylor** · 14th August 2007, 08:30

I think there is an important message that no-one should engage in directly naming dealers in a derisory way, in print, on this forum.
A libellous, venomous post appeared last night that was quickly lanced by the moderators. Had the person who wrote it been a prosecution lawyer in Hitlers Germany, Stalins USSR or Mugabes Zimbabwe he would have had a wonderful career. And therefore the unfortunate historical term he chose for his nom de plume would have been most appropriate. Somewhat incleverly, the very post again placed the dealers name at the forefront.
What is clear is that often people will beleive what they want to beleive, to serve their own ends, comfort zone or ( perhaps ) historical prejudice.
I will continue to answer suspension related questions and offer sometimes interesting subject matter inclusive of my noted fault of being totally candid. It is totally appropriate to highlight some of the shonky stuff that IS going on, but to correctly refrain from libellously and directly pointing the finger to a name or business.

**tri boy** · 14th August 2007, 12:32

Nothing wrong with being candid and honest in a field that you know intimately.
If people struggle with honesty, maybe they need to subscribe to "Mills and Boon", and lose themselves in a world of fluffiness and fantasy.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I personally enjoy your threads. Engineering and Physics are two classic examples of training, where there laws stand up to any attempt to blur or smudge there defined parameters.

"Ya cana change thee laws o physics captain" (Terrible attempt of Star Treks "Scotty" impersonation).
Please continue with your informative "gold" Robert.

**Fatjim** · 14th August 2007, 17:30

Robert, without the offending post (or snippets) its really hard to put your words into context.

I for one if treated poorly by a supplier, with no effort to put it right on their part have no problem in telling anybody and everybody. However, I am the customer, and as long as I stick to the facts then its not libel.

As a side note, also I personally dislike it when a shop lets me down, and when sorting out the problem try tomake me feel like they are doing me a favour and I should be thoroughly grateful that they only pissed my off slightly.

**Robert Taylor** · 14th August 2007, 17:42

Originally Posted by Fatjim

Robert, without the offending post (or snippets) its really hard to put your words into context.

I for one if treated poorly by a supplier, with no effort to put it right on their part have no problem in telling anybody and everybody. However, I am the customer, and as long as I stick to the facts then its not libel.

As a side note, also I personally dislike it when a shop lets me down, and when sorting out the problem try tomake me feel like they are doing me a favour and I should be thoroughly grateful that they only pissed my off slightly.

Suffice to say the post was neither pretty nor clever, and I suspect the author has made a nasty little habit of it. And yes I hear what you say,whats the answer to this all too common problem?

**Macktheknife** · 14th August 2007, 18:28

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor

,whats the answer to this all too common problem?

Using names that make it obvious to whom one refers but without naming them per se? As in (first example comes to mind) A well known brand of camping lantern or mustard (for colemans), has been consistently good with their service.

I must say however, that if we can praise online using specific names of shops and people, why should we be less candid for criticisms?

**ynot slow** · 14th August 2007, 18:34

Was reading and had posted in that thread and the thread starter basically said that R.Taylor said a certain shop in the area was implicated in suspension ripoffs/safety at risk,not once did Robert say which business it was,the thread starter did.Sounded like a know all who new f.all.Idid think that the thread was sailing close to the wind for libel claims.

**jafar** · 14th August 2007, 18:39

Originally Posted by Macktheknife

I must say however, that if we can praise online using specific names of shops and people, why should we be less candid for criticisms?

Because your unlikely to be sued for saying nice things, even if it is about mustard

**merv** · 14th August 2007, 18:40

Whoever Holocaust is/was he got a dose of Zyklon B from the mods.

**Storm** · 14th August 2007, 18:41

I think the general point is that you can tell of your personal experience and how you felt, but getting all nasty and name calling/ spouting off with out the facts is a no go. That said, there have been some absolutly shocking case which no one could argue with, but like everything on the net, dont say it if you wouldnt say it to the person(s) involved, or the judge in the libel trial

**Hitcher** · 14th August 2007, 19:23

Although the truth is an absolute defence against defamation (libel, slander), members should be extremely scrupulous as to their intention and tone when posting negative comments. A useful "test" is that you should not post here what you have not/would not say directly to any business with which you may have a disagreement or dispute.

While many members post under the guise of web handles, this site's owner does not enjoy the same levels of anonymity. Any legal challenge that a defamed person or organisation/business chooses to take will not just be against the poster, it will also be taken against the publisher i.e. the site's owner.

It is for these reasons that Moderators act swiftly to remove any posted material that may potentially place this site at risk of prosecution.

The same comments apply to posted material that contravenes Court suppression orders.

**98tls** · 14th August 2007, 19:46

Originally Posted by Robert Taylor

I will continue to answer suspension related questions and offer sometimes interesting subject matter inclusive of my noted fault of being totally candid. It is totally appropriate to highlight some of the shonky stuff that IS going on, but to correctly refrain from libellously and directly pointing the finger to a name or business.

Carry on as you are mate,as a supposed motorcycle forum its real nice to read interesting threads devoted to the pursuit of better motorcycling as opposed to some of the crap posted by some of the playstation generation.

**Sollyboy** · 14th August 2007, 20:13

It illegal or wrong to post true information showing a dealership or brand in a bad way , or if you state your opinion is it illegal ?
Ive been reading the dog and lemon guide and they rip into some car makers with impunity ,why have they not been sued or silenced?

**Hitcher** · 14th August 2007, 20:32

Originally Posted by Sollyboy

It illegal or wrong to post true information showing a dealership or brand in a bad way , or if you state your opinion is it illegal ?
Ive been reading the dog and lemon guide and they rip into some car makers with impunity ,why have they not been sued or silenced?

Read my earlier post. The truth is an absolute defence. Just be careful how you express it.

**geoffm** · 15th August 2007, 09:34

Originally Posted by Sollyboy

It illegal or wrong to post true information showing a dealership or brand in a bad way , or if you state your opinion is it illegal ?
Ive been reading the dog and lemon guide and they rip into some car makers with impunity ,why have they not been sued or silenced?

The truth is a defense BUT you had better have rock solid, documented proof, beyond unsubstantiated claims. A dimly remembered conversation with no witnesses will not count.
The other side of it is the cost of defense, which would see KB disappear very quickly. The legal costs of defending a claim are $10s of thousands of dollars - $100k would probably be a starter, and it doesn't really matter if you are right, or win, you will still be out of pocket, and the lawyers will have all your money. This tactic is a common one for big companies or the government against individuals or small companies - the deepest pockets win. There is no justice in the law.
Geoff

**Joni** · 15th August 2007, 09:55

Hmm, Im sorry Hitcher, Im not 100% in agreement with you regarding the site being responsible... it might pay for members to keep this post in mind from site stuff, I have highlighted the part that is applicable.

Originally Posted by Joni

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It would be helpfull to read the following:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...130#post883130

However guys, think before you post... why open up legal stuff when it's not needed.