Treaty of Waitangi

[duckonin]

EUROPEAN, Maori are not indigenous at all, the treaty is no longer valid,and never should of been, there were never any bounday pegs the mongrels just waved their arm's and said we own that to the top of the hill and out to the sea, that is all ours BRO there are no Maoris left in this country , most are European but some are as brown as throw backs, those wanting the treaty rectified are a bunch of bludgers wanting to increase their own stake in life, they couldn't give a shit about anyone else,the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

[HTFU]

the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

Fuck bro thats harsh

[Albino]

Probably already said already, but imho:

I agree with the treaty and what it has done for maori. However, I also believe that if anyone is not grieving today over a historical issue then there are only two reasons why they will feel grieved tomorrow:

• Greed
• An injustice was not unknown to that person.

In the latter case, if this was known by your ancestors and they did nothing then by now the government should be able to say that the grievance has not affected you or your iwi.

So in summary, all claims should stop from NOW. The only possible exception being something that is brought to light for the first time that directly and materially affects the current generation. Even then I'd suggest too much time has elapsed for anyone to really be affected.

Time to move on.

[Albino]

Probably already said already, but imho:

I agree with the treaty and what it has done for maori. However, I also believe that if anyone is not grieving today over a historical issue then there are only two reasons why they will feel grieved tomorrow:

• Greed
• An injustice was not unknown to that person.

In the latter case, if this was known by your ancestors and they did nothing then by now the government should be able to say that the grievance has not affected you or your iwi. If it wasn't known then it was too long ago to affect you and it wasn't consequential enough to have affected your ancestors.

So in summary, all claims should stop from NOW.

Time to move on.

[HTFU]

materially affects the current generation.

Yeah like our education system. We could all claim a grievance there.

[Ocean1]

I They need to learn stuff other than irrelevant and complicated Maths and Science. As do the majority of our students. Why do we push this shit on our kids. Work placements and I mean helping the community, the elderly, environment, trade based learning, more PE and Health. If this was the focus of the government we would have more engaged students, less problems with kids going off the wall, (and the money needed to address them, like teachers needing more pay because its a shit job).

Well argued. And disastrously wrong. The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been. It casts a cloud over our future darker than any mere social or environmental concerns.

Dude, science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation, if you doubt that ask yourself how far you'd get with your plans for today without access to our current technology. I promise you the largest single benefit to every human on this planet is access to modern tools, drugs, transport, agriculture, communication etc. How many lives would the loss of modern science cost? All of them. All other disciplines pale into insignificance in terms of the impact they have on the quality of our lives.

By all means teach social management skills, languages, environmental awareness, history, health, all necessary for success as an adult. Teach also the more esoteric skills required to build and service our civilisation, we can’t survive without them, (this from a hairy arsed fitter OK?). But without science and the ability to manipulate complex numerical concepts our civilisation is dead, along with every other modern advantage it brings.

There’s a theory, (well enough researched to have become close to fact) that this planet has resources enough to support the rise of a technologically sophisticated civilisation just once. If we fail to survive as a civilisation we will not get the chance to rise again. Time the education administrators stoped playing political games with our future, time for society in general to regain the respect due to those professions that make our world what it is.

[idb]

Look what happened in the Far North...with regards to the sealing of the road to Cape Reinga. The local Kaumata sent those lying, cheating, bludging 'protesters' scurrying off. We will see more instances of this in the future, as more people see these pricks for what they are.
Edit. Those Kaumata (note the capital to denote respect) see that the future lies in going forward for the betterment of all.

Agreed.
In my original post I said that there is ignorance on both sides.

[Clockwork]

Well argued. And disastrously wrong. The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been. It casts a cloud over our future darker than any mere social or environmental concerns.

Dude, science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation, if you doubt that ask yourself how far you'd get with your plans for today without access to our current technology. I promise you the largest single benefit to every human on this planet is access to modern tools, drugs, transport, agriculture, communication etc. How many lives would the loss of modern science cost? All of them. All other disciplines pale into insignificance in terms of the impact they have on the quality of our lives.

By all means teach social management skills, languages, environmental awareness, history, health, all necessary for success as an adult. Teach also the more esoteric skills required to build and service our civilisation, we can’t survive without them, (this from a hairy arsed fitter OK?). But without science and the ability to manipulate complex numerical concepts our civilisation is dead, along with every other modern advantage it brings.

There’s a theory, (well enough researched to have become close to fact) that this planet has resources enough to support the rise of a technologically sophisticated civilisation just once. If we fail to survive as a civilisation we will not get the chance to rise again. Time the education administrators stoped playing political games with our future, time for society in general to regain the respect due to those professions that make our world what it is.

Perhaps you're both right. Perhaps we should bring back streaming in schools... horses for courses an' all that.

[idb]

EUROPEAN, Maori are not indigenous at all, the treaty is no longer valid,and never should of been, there were never any bounday pegs the mongrels just waved their arm's and said we own that to the top of the hill and out to the sea, that is all ours BRO there are no Maoris left in this country , most are European but some are as brown as throw backs, those wanting the treaty rectified are a bunch of bludgers wanting to increase their own stake in life, they couldn't give a shit about anyone else,the brains of a white man and the cunning of a black are a bad combination.....

You forgot to put pt on the end.

[Bass]

Well argued. And disastrously wrong. The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been. It casts a cloud over our future darker than any mere social or environmental concerns.

Dude, science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation, if you doubt that ask yourself how far you'd get with your plans for today without access to our current technology. I promise you the largest single benefit to every human on this planet is access to modern tools, drugs, transport, agriculture, communication etc. How many lives would the loss of modern science cost? All of them. All other disciplines pale into insignificance in terms of the impact they have on the quality of our lives.

By all means teach social management skills, languages, environmental awareness, history, health, all necessary for success as an adult. Teach also the more esoteric skills required to build and service our civilisation, we can’t survive without them, (this from a hairy arsed fitter OK?). But without science and the ability to manipulate complex numerical concepts our civilisation is dead, along with every other modern advantage it brings.

There’s a theory, (well enough researched to have become close to fact) that this planet has resources enough to support the rise of a technologically sophisticated civilisation just once. If we fail to survive as a civilisation we will not get the chance to rise again. Time the education administrators stoped playing political games with our future, time for society in general to regain the respect due to those professions that make our world what it is.

Spot on!! Like it or not, mathematics is the language of the universe and the only universal one.
I think there is a strong case to be made for subjects that enable the student to make a living in our society to have pre-eminence in our education system. If this is not so, then surely we are simply educating people to be supported by the rest of us.

I also think that the biggest factor in Maori success or the lack of it, is their failure in the education system. However, I am unsure as to whether the problem lies with Maori or with the system.

[Sanx]

EDIT: im not suggesting for a second that it didnt happen, im just suggesting I dont know fuck all about it (but either way, that's not the point) - regardless of whether the Maori fucked over Moriori, the "they did it first so we can too" excuse is STILL unbelievably childish and insurmountably ignorant

Wrong - it is entirely relevant. Maori claim special privilige by virtue of being tangata whenua; people who descend from the first people to settle the land. If, as it is claimed with some extremely good archeological evidence, the Moriori were in New Zealand before Maori, then the entire basis for tangata whenua is false.

In addition, look at the current spat over who gets the rights to claim for lots of money in Auckland. One iwi saying that they claimed the land as battle spoil, and therefore it was theirs. Another said they were there first, and therefore it's theirs. If one can claim rights to land as a result of winning terriroty in battle, then most of the iwis' claims can be thrown out immediately, as they 'lost' ownership of the lands to the British crown in military combat.

The treaty is an anachronism and should be discarded as soon as is practicable, along with the PC bullshit that this country seems so proud of. Before the arrival of Europeans, the Maori were a stone-age culture who practiced cannibalism. Not what you might call an advanced culture by any stretch of the imagination, but one that did (does) have its good points.

The treaty itself is a badly-worded document with the English and Te Reo versions differing in meaning, mainly down to a lack of words in Te Reo to match the English counterparts. In any modern contract, a lack of understanding of the wording of a contract is no legal excuse for not adhering to it. Considering that NZ law is based upon British common law, we can go back to see what British common law said about contracts in the 1840s - basically, the same rules applied. It is clear that many chiefs simply did not understand what the treaty meant; whether that was the result of misrepresentation or simple ignorance we won't know.

The treaty, a relatively simple document, is now subject to the same sort of scrutiny given to religious texts, with various self-appointed experts saying that because one particular chief once is reported to have said "I gave them the land, not the sea", then Maori own all the foreshore. The best thing, in the long run, that could happen to New Zealand is the adoption of a formal constitution that supercedes the Treaty of Waitangi and guarantees equal rights to all New Zealanders, regardless of ethnic origin. This would not spell an end to Maori culture, but it would remove the mindless pandering to Maori sensibilities that happens today.

[Grub]

There's the small matter of a written contract involved in the Maori/European situation though.

Agreed

The book "Moriori" by Michael King says the NZ was most likely not settled by Moriori.

The issue wasn't who got here first , it was about defeating and decimating them - totally different things.

Why is it we keep seeing people trying to say this didn't happen and trying to sweep it under the carpet? Isn't this what Maori have been complaining about?

[ManDownUnder]

Without reading the rest (thereby biasing my response... and speeding things up quite a lot).

It's a treaty - an agreement not to war on each other and the terms of peace were laid out. There is confusion arising from the concepts of Sovereignty, with Maori and Non Maori laying claim to different aspects of it - an ongoing point of confusion and argument.

It is NOT a contitution. Never has been, was never intended to be. As such, using it as the basis of laws is stupid. Saying The Treaty needs to be used as the basis of our judicial system is simply trying to enforce the identity of the respective parties involved.

What about those that have a foot each way (i.e. they have Maori and non Maori lineage). Does their left foot have a grievance against their right? It's a fanicful notion that's not enforceable.

We need a constitution which simply lays out the right and obligations of all Citizens of this Nation, as well as visitors. When i say all - I mean ALL. It needs to be the supreme document. Sensitivity to the various factions within NZ should be taken into account day to day but if someone comes up to me and holds me responsible for the illdoings of my forefathers, then I'll rightly feel aggreived. I wasn't there, I had nothing to do with it, and to exact retribution from me is a farce. I might be greived at some of my forebears being killed and eaten (as was the way)...

What price could or should I put on that?

The past is the past. the Treaty, while an important document, holds less and less day to day meaning but reflects a period in our past that demonstrates best attempts by all involved to live peacably alongside each other.

Lets do that same thing again... now.

Rant over.

[yod]

Wrong - it is entirely relevant. Maori claim special privilige by virtue of being tangata whenua; people who descend from the first people to settle the land. If, as it is claimed with some extremely good archeological evidence, the Moriori were in New Zealand before Maori, then the entire basis for tangata whenua is false.

In addition, look at the current spat over who gets the rights to claim for lots of money in Auckland. One iwi saying that they claimed the land as battle spoil, and therefore it was theirs. Another said they were there first, and therefore it's theirs. If one can claim rights to land as a result of winning terriroty in battle, then most of the iwis' claims can be thrown out immediately, as they 'lost' ownership of the lands to the British crown in military combat.

The treaty is an anachronism and should be discarded as soon as is practicable, along with the PC bullshit that this country seems so proud of. Before the arrival of Europeans, the Maori were a stone-age culture who practiced cannibalism. Not what you might call an advanced culture by any stretch of the imagination, but one that did (does) have its good points.

The treaty itself is a badly-worded document with the English and Te Reo versions differing in meaning, mainly down to a lack of words in Te Reo to match the English counterparts. In any modern contract, a lack of understanding of the wording of a contract is no legal excuse for not adhering to it. Considering that NZ law is based upon British common law, we can go back to see what British common law said about contracts in the 1840s - basically, the same rules applied. It is clear that many chiefs simply did not understand what the treaty meant; whether that was the result of misrepresentation or simple ignorance we won't know.

The treaty, a relatively simple document, is now subject to the same sort of scrutiny given to religious texts, with various self-appointed experts saying that because one particular chief once is reported to have said "I gave them the land, not the sea", then Maori own all the foreshore. The best thing, in the long run, that could happen to New Zealand is the adoption of a formal constitution that supercedes the Treaty of Waitangi and guarantees equal rights to all New Zealanders, regardless of ethnic origin. This would not spell an end to Maori culture, but it would remove the mindless pandering to Maori sensibilities that happens today.

wrong?? wtf ?? nice spiel, but can you read??

all i was stating in that last post, was that its childish to use the "they did it first so we can too" excuse (for anything)

you actually think thats a reasonable excuse?

[Grub]

all i was stating in that last post, was that its childish to use the "they did it first so we can too" excuse (for anything)

you actually think thats a reasonable excuse?

Actually, you were the one to float that hypothesis, nobody else. So no excuse offered or needed.