Treaty of Waitangi

[Str8 Jacket]

See im a New Zealander.... My father is Maori and my mother is English, not quite sure what that makes me?? That's what part of the problem is, IMO. Many NZers have a tiny amount of maori in them and prob wouldnt know....


As for the treaty, I havent got to many thoughts on it. Im sick of hearing about though, I know that much!

[Finn]

Mind explaining........

Yeah, it's that sickly feeling in your stomach that makes you heave its contents up involuntarily.

[COP_B8]

Yeah, it's that sickly feeling in your stomach that makes you heave its contents up involuntarily.

And this is bought on from Universities offering courses in Maori Business and Commercial Law how........... generally its alcohol that does it for me!

[surfchick]

Hi there, I am completing a research paper...
If anyone has an opinion I would appreciate your comments, and also if you could please identify yourself as Maori, Pakeha, etc......


Cheers in Advance

pakeha - moved to NZ in the late 1980's from northern ireland
I lecture in Otara - Vis. arts. The treaty is a huge part of our job interview process (its one of the 6 interview questions) and inflects or daily teaching reality in many ways becuase of the strongly PI and Maori make-up of our classes. I percieve the treaty to be a extremely important document - (although there is debate around the details and circumstances of the signing and working inconsistancies...) for diffferent reasons than the kiwi norm. probably. I believe it to be so super duper important as it is a site of discussion and negotiation between government and Maori. Some of the ***massive and inconcievable attrocities committed in the land wars, in the systematic destruction of the Maori language (ie not able to learn in Maori at school) and in other land confiscation were always going to create generational pain, passed on and on. The treaty has meant there is a forum of negotition in place in NZ -a situation which was never ever the case in Northern Ireland. With the troubles there was no sustained "site" for dialogue and money compensation in the way the treaty is the basis for dialogue here (so we instead had civil war...which has now quited back to an environment in which there is nothing BUT argument and dialogue... you can't win...). I actually believe it is the treaty that has brought us back from the brink... a valve if you like

In terms of the treaty's application at work it's main implications allow in supporting Maori social structures in an otherwise european university structure of learning- including having whanau present at certain art-crits (which has also facilitated other ethnicities bring in their support people) etc and also being flexible about the use of maori language in essays and seminar presentations (which we support by getting in a Maori language speaking assessor since my te reo Maori is basic!) pretty low key and easy to manage in alot of ways.

I must say I'm surprised at some of the blank dismissals in this thread as it's a complex legacy the treaty has had... but I guess the arts have been wrangling with the ins and outs of representation (as in art images) of Maori in many ways that other professions don't... as we've got some pretty **cken fab Maori artists about like Lisa Reihana working with how Maori are imaged in a broader sense... thinking of the recent Digital Marae series

[COP_B8]

Only fair I put my comment in:

Similar to some,

There are a substantial number of grievances that are in direct contravention of the Treaty of Waitangi, mainly in the 1800's and early 1900's, grievances more than just blankets and muskets exchanged for land. Often land was stolen, acquired 'legally' through legislation enacted for the sole purpose of acquiring land, gifted for schools, hospitals, security etc.... but never used for that purpose, as well as many other methods.

These actions provide grounds for claims in the present day to which claims are being acknowledged and settled, often these settlement payouts provide solid financial basis for iwi and they have become very successful for it (Nga Tahu) and I agree that these claims should be acknowledged, settled and then moved on from as is currently occuring [With a timeframe]

I also agree, in part, that SOME of the social disadvantages Maori suffer from now are a resulty of a system that is ill catered for Maori culture and as a result Maori tend to fall off the rails, at a higher rate than Non-Maori.
HOWEVER
In providing Iwi with a substantial asset base (170 million in some cases) this should provide the ability for iwi to affect these changes internally and be the deciders of their own future.

I also disagree with the way the Treaty has been manipulated to cater for Claims that are so far fetched they only create a further us and them mentality amongst all New Zealanders.

Thus in going forward, I feel all Treaty Settlements (genuine) should be analysed, negotiated and settled within a set time frame, and the money that is dispersed audited to ensure that it is being used to the maximum advantage of all Iwi members, however the reality is is that the so called full and final settlements that are being paid out for WILL NOT be the last that is heard off.

In terms of the Treaty Itself, it is to ambiguous a document to be afforded any future significant legal or social significance

The reality is that the Treaty has no legal status beyond the references to it in legislation (The Principles of the Treaty.......) and the main reason that Claims are occuring is social concience, there have been bills before Parliament to scrap any reference to it in legislation and off course Don Brash's Orewa Speech, so as soon as the 'Blankets and Muskets' mentality grows large enough it could be scrapped by a government with the stroke of a pen, It only takes 51% off the population to agree to something in an opinion poll for political parties to suddenly step up and take action (look at Global Warming) What is needed is Education!

I cant be bothered proof reading for grammar or spelling but thats my 2c worth!

[terbang]

There are a substantial number of grievances that are in direct contravention of the Treaty of Waitangi, mainly in the 1800's and early 1900's, grievances more than just blankets and muskets exchanged for land. Often land was stolen, acquired 'legally' through legislation enacted for the sole purpose of acquiring land, gifted for schools, hospitals, security etc.... but never used for that purpose, as well as many other methods.

I believe a lot of this is well documented albeit by the scoundrels themselves.
Like a lot of the worlds written history, it is written by the victors. In this case it was the European way of life that became, for want of a better word, the winner. Hence the 'well they ate the Moriori' and muskets and blankets justification still prevalent among many European New Zealanders.
What is the the current race or origin of New Zealanders? It is changing rapidly, the old simple and traditional Maori/Pakeha (referring to Europeans) distinction is no longer quite so defined with the large influx of Asian and other Polynesian people to New Zealand. Sure the treaty is between the Crown (the poms) and the Maoris, but is the crown now a fair or accurate representation of us non Maori Kiwis anymore? We are also part of the commonwealth which seems to be much further over the horizon now than before.

[COP_B8]

I believe a lot of this is well documented albeit by the scoundrels themselves..

No, alot of the theft/taking/acquiring (descibe how you please) of land back then was very well documentented by the Crown, The New Zealand Company (original 'settlers' and land 'acquirers' before the crown), The Native Land Courts, Survey Companys, Churches........ guess they didnt envisige this all coming about, also very plain for all to see in some of the Legislation that was created.

[terbang]

No, alot of the theft/taking/acquiring (descibe how you please) of land back then was very well documentented by the Crown, The New Zealand Company (original 'settlers' and land 'acquirers' before the crown), The Native Land Courts, Survey Companys, Churches........ guess they didnt envisige this all coming about, also very plain for all to see in some of the Legislation that was created.

So the victors would say. Perhaps the word scoundrels is a bit strong but you could not discount collusion between the various 'interested' European parties such as the Crown, to make the deal work in their favour. At that time Maori values were considerably different to the capitalist values of Europeans and their understanding of land ownership was clearly different. Easy pickings I would suspect.

[Meanie]

I'm a New Zealander.
Rip the fkn thing up. Remove all the seperatism. Declare a Bill of Rights, where all citizens are treated equally.

Fuck yea......... Im with you Treat everyone with equality Im sick of the racist bullshit our government and others stir up

[smoky]

I don't think I have enough knowledge, yet, to form a complete opinion on it.

Don't let that stop you, it doesn't stop any one else from expressing their views on KB, ignorant rants are the preferred on anything to do with the Treaty.

I am trying to establish opinions from a broad range of society

Won't get much of that on here - just extreme opinion and some whipped up hysteria. All good fun.

[H00dz]

Firstly I am Maori ….

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that there has been wrong doing and that reparations were needed to right the “Sins of our fathers” (well your fathers actually ….oops I forgot about that “Moriori” incident…. maybe my fathers as well) but I am equally mystified with the “how much” and “how long” the atonements should continue…….(we do need to move on…. no argument from me).

Personally I think that it is the nature of man to dominate others who are weaker or different (take the All blacks and the Aussies – we’ve been dominating those pricks for years!!!). My personal take on this whole Treaty issue is “We lost, you won end of story”!!…

History clearly shows that the English were advantaged in every facet and that Maori were never going to be allowed to retain such a valuable piece of real estate such as New Zealand. (If it hadn’t been the English It would have been some other European super power of the time).

No doubt if the situation had been reversed I’m sure we’d be here having the same discussion except you’d all be on the dole collecting welfare and I’d have a better bike then my beat up “89” FJ1200.

For those out there who have expressed strong opinions about Maori “leeching off the system” and waiting for their “handouts” I think there is truth with many of your comments. I agree that there are groups out there who are content to play their roles as “victims”.

What really pisses me off is why are you all so upset with this situation?.

Dam the Treaty!!! I couldn’t care less about it, the English certainly didn’t.

I implore you don’t speak from ignorance and make uninformed snipes…do some real research, as painful or revealing as it maybe you would clearly see that system was designed to do exactly what it has achieved, which was to “dis-empower” maori as a race and implement social reforms as a means to create a lower class society similar to that modeled in England at the time.

Do you honestly believe Maori were that “backward and uncultured” that we willingly embraced our position as "lower class" throughout the early period of the colonization of New Zealand ……Please get over yourselves!!!!

The real crime is NOT that you beat us up and took our land…. it’s NOT that you gave us a treaty document with no genuine intention of honouring it principals.
The real crime is when all is said and done, there has been no GENUINE effort to make restoration until in recent years !!!


What surprises me is how many of you have identified yourselves as New Zealanders Why is this?.....why are you not English or Scottish or what ever race that you come from? do have no sense of identity ? Is there some disgrace to be linked to your heritage?…..

I am Maori

and proud !!!!


P.S Debate and discussion is a good thing and forums like these are great vehicles to voice how we really feel with little risk personal conflict or repercussion however for this to be really useful for everyone it needs to conclude with

M = Mutual
A = Agreement/Acknowledgement
O = of
R = Respected
I = Ideas


Otherwise it would be like a bunch of old farts (myself included) and Uni Geeks with too much f*****g time on our hands sitting around procrastinating!!!.

[candor]

Non Maori need to first comprehend and second honor it, Maori need to not abuse it and to use it as a means to improve their peoples lot (restoratively, to restore dignity).

Either side not doing its bit will see NZ turn into a worse hellhole within forty years - there will be greater than the current white (and Maori) flight, and the country will be poorer for that.

I think it is shallow to just dismiss the subject as an aggravating nuisance. It is a double edged sword and has been powerfully used by some to achieve good. Others not, don't judge the treaties merits on the doings of a few loose cannons.

Hoodz - when Europeans came the Maori had an even stricter class system than we did yanno. We did not introduce that concept! There was plenty of "lower class" Maori before we ever got here and the Maori class system was well acknowledged. I've seen much evidence it still eists too - far more thasn our class system. Those who came here actually tried to be rid of the class system. That is how "Pakeha" Kiwis are different to POMs as you'd see if you spent a little time in London today.

[peasea]

There was a war. We won, sit down and face the front.

It's about survival of the fittest, conquest and all that.

Guns versus sticks.

Influenza versus picking your arse.

The original post went along the lines of; "get a bit of a discussion going about its relevance" (meaning the tweety). It's done that but, as far as I can see anything that went down in 1840 or thereabouts has little relevance in '07.

As Henry Ford said; "History is bunk."

[Conquiztador]

As someone who came from a Nordic country here over 20 years ago and stayed, I have taken interest in this Treaty issue. I have closely looked at it from different angles and found that there is many gaps here.

- What is the real Treay document is still debated. There is apperently at least three versions. Also the translations between Maori and English do not come out the same.

- The Treaty was (as far as I have been able to establish) requested by the Maori representatives to provide them with some security as it was becoming clear that they were loosing badly.

- Value of land has changed in a big way. Even 20 years ago where I now live you could not give away land. True! People were sitting with titles and paying rates. They did not want to pay the rates and so wanted to give the land away. But there were no takers. Today a 1/4 acre section goes for $300K. Wonder what it was worth in 1860? I am sure that some of the ones that wanted to get rid of their land in 1980 would happily have taken a blanket for it...

- Value and look at things change. Something that is considered worthless today might be worth a fortune in 100 years. Lets say that I paint. Someone comes for a visit that knows value when they see it. That one offers me a can of beans and a sleeping bag. I am really hungry and have not had enough money to pay for the power, and so the power has been cut resulting in me not being able to keep the heater on. I happily accept his offer and he smiles as he walks away with one of my best paintings. Thirty years later, when I am famous, I see my paiting for sale for $1 million. Do I now have the right to claim it back (or the $1 million it sells for) as I consider my self tricked in to handing it over for a can of beans and a sleeping bag?

- There was at least one "Maori" tribe who were red haired and white skinned...

- Who are the current Maoris who have the right to the claims? What makes them Maori? Their blood lines? Their subscription to the cause? Their beliefs? Personally I have problems thinking of one Maori I know who can claim more then 50% actual Maori blood in their veins. Or perhaps that is not important?

And I identify my self as Viking.

[Ocean1]

What surprises me is how many of you have identified yourselves as New Zealanders Why is this?.....why are you not English or Scottish or what ever race that you come from? do have no sense of identity ? Is there some disgrace to be linked to your heritage?…

My hand’s up here. It's a matter of comparing apples with apples. You've called yourself a Maori, so allow me to explain why I call myself a New Zealander.

Like you my genetic background is hugely mixed. In my case it's a blend representing pretty much all of Europe, and that more than 7 generations ago. Genetically I'm Caucasian. Genetically you're almost certainly Caucasian/Mongoloid. You'll notice that doesn't define either of our cultures.

If you identify yourself as Maori it's because you feel an affinity with those of that culture. I feel an affinity with New Zealanders, all of 'em, so culturally I’m a New Zealander. Simple really.

The suggestion that my heritage might be worthy of disgrace is provocative, designed I suspect to demean or belittle. I’ll not take that bait, other than to suggest that such is the way of the insecure.