Police shoot and kill another person

[Coldrider]

My appologies for jumping in. Firearms safety is something I am very concerned about. In that shooting is my sport and I tend to get very defensive about obeying the rules. Even those I do not actually believe in I do obey.

Merde

I totally agree. It only takes one or two ##### to wreck it for everyone.
I have a mate who had his firemans confiscated by Speights in Fiji, he never got them back. (Nothing to do with the comment though, but out of interest).

[peasea]

Hell no - why drop the dog with the first shot when it means you won't have anything to shoot at anymore?


(BTW: how many of you out there have shot a running dog with a pistol under those circumstances? - probably only those that can out-ride Rossi I'd say at a guess!)

Conversely, if you empty your mag into a mutt and there's a nutter behind said mutt (with a weapon) then what?

Admit it, 12 shots like that is 'panic mode'.

[scumdog]

Conversely, if you empty your mag into a mutt and there's a nutter behind said mutt (with a weapon) then what?

Admit it, 12 shots like that is 'panic mode'.

12 shots?

He still had 5 more to go before being empty - and would have had a spare mag with another 17.

[davereid]

Hell no - why drop the dog with the first shot when it means you won't have anything to shoot at anymore?

Nah, its ok to keep shooting long after the target is dead.

Just hold the gun to the targets head and keep shooting.

That way you wont miss as much.

BANG BANG
BANG BANG
BANG BANG
BANG


"Halt - British Transport Police"

"Fuck, its just a sparky - nick the trains survelliance tape Bill, theres a good lad, we'll tell 'em the prick had a hammer"

[peasea]

12 shots?

He still had 5 more to go before being empty - and would have had a spare mag with another 17.

However many.......it was a string of shots then, whatever.

I'm not saying I wouldn't panic with a fat, lumbering dog waddling toward me but if I did panic I wouldn't be shooting up the neighbourhood....coz I don't carry a gun, (much as I'd like to on occasion) and frankly I don't think anyone else who hasn't had umpteen hours of training with firearms should carry one either.

[idleidolidyll]

I received a private message while I was away yesterday.

The writer should have posted it on the open forum but didn't for their own reasoons. I will respect their privacy and won't divulge who posted it but I do believe that the points he raises deserve airing and answering in the open rather than behind the closed doors of PM.

here's what he said:


"Patrick is a cop. He makes no secret of it, it's on every post he sends. Scumdog also is a cop and that is mentioned frequently in various threads, both are relatively senior in so far as neither are constables. I think there may be at least two other serving Police who appear on KB from time to time.

I mentioned in another post some months ago that I had met both Patrick and Scumdog and thought they would dignify an intelligent question with an intelligent answer. I still consider that to be true but I guess they are human and will respond negatively to ill-informed goading.

Would you want to be a cop? I know I couldn't be bothered with the crap they have to put up with."

Here's my reply (not PM'd to him)

It's irrelevant what they are like in person. I too may be quite different to what you expect in person.

My comments are not “ill informed goading” they are relevant public concerns over police actions and training.

What matters is that on this forum they are pumping the Greg O'Connor spin or if you like; the "closed ranks spin" as hard as they can before the investigation is completed and that spin is the usual compassion free blanket whitewash of police action.

Their gross use of fallacious argument tactics indicates the shallowness of their argument and the extent to which it is an extreme one. I offer here the opposite extreme and I make no bones about that. To be given a one sided story and be asked to decide on that basis smacks of fascism and big brotherism.

My attacks are NOT on the specific cop; they are on the poor training of cops in general and their belief that they have limited choices in these situations. The condensed version of their argument is that the guy deserved to be killed.

That's bullshit, he deserved to be jailed certainly, he did not deserve to be killed and the message being sent IS that the police don't give a damn for human life whether that be in these kinds of cases or when chasing a car full of youths to their deaths.
No, I wouldn’t want to be a cop but that doesn’t mean I want cops to kill people either.

[Patrick]

Anyone who has been properly trained in the use of a pistol and has enough experience with such so as to be able to hit a standard target at 25 meters with some semblence of accuracy and consistantcy.

Most of our training is at close range with a pistol, reaction shoot/double tap at 1 metre out to 20 metres aimed, at a cardboard cutout. If there is time to aim at 20-25 metres, there might also be time to back out. The fact is, Police shootings are usually at very close quarters, just like the one in CHCH.

My comments are not “ill informed goading” they are relevant public concerns over police actions and training.

What matters is that on this forum they are pumping the Greg O'Connor spin or if you like; the "closed ranks spin" as hard as they can before the investigation is completed and that spin is the usual compassion free blanket whitewash of police action.

Their gross use of fallacious argument tactics indicates the shallowness of their argument and the extent to which it is an extreme one. I offer here the opposite extreme and I make no bones about that. To be given a one sided story and be asked to decide on that basis smacks of fascism and big brotherism.

My attacks are NOT on the specific cop; they are on the poor training of cops in general and their belief that they have limited choices in these situations. The condensed version of their argument is that the guy deserved to be killed.

That's bullshit, he deserved to be jailed certainly, he did not deserve to be killed and the message being sent IS that the police don't give a damn for human life whether that be in these kinds of cases or when chasing a car full of youths to their deaths.
No, I wouldn’t want to be a cop but that doesn’t mean I want cops to kill people either.

Geez, you like that "fallacious" word dontcha? How many times is that now?

YOU are the one pumping the TV3 and the tattoed neighbour spin. You've decided to believe the tattoed con neighbour who is sticking up for his mate neighbour and probably has his own anti cop agenda (who, by the way, is on his own with his claims, excluding you). You choose to believe that he was shot for breaking windows.

I've chosen to believe the hoards of independant witnesses who say the nut had a go at killing the cop and believe that the cop deserved to go home to his family for doing his job.

No party line, no closing ranks, no Greg O'Connor platitudes, no closed ranks spin, nothing.... I've been on leave for the last week and have heard what is in the news and spouted on here.

You think there were other options, I think there wasn't. You think it is a bad result, I don't.

You getting all prissy with the big words, good for you. I keep it simple, like a simple thing really.... when the masses say the cop lived instead of the idiot, I am happy. Your view seems to be the opposite.

Quite right about awaiting the results of the full inquiry.... you chose not to wait, so I pointed out the opposite of your version you so strongly believe in.

[Finn]

...at a cardboard cutout.

Annette King per chance? Maybe Hulen?

[idleidolidyll]

''Geez, you like that "fallacious" word dontcha? How many times is that now?"

not as many times as you've used fallacy arguments and that's the point. Your fallaies are a huge sign pointing out that your argument is NOT based on logic.

as for the big words, i refuse to dumb down for dummies; that kind of attitude is what gets the likes of George Bush elected King of the Planet

I'll mongrel the rest of your post when I get back

[Swoop]

Annette King per chance? Maybe Hulen?

The use, of photographs of real people, was "frowned upon" some time back...

How PC.

[Mr Merde]

Most of our training is at close range with a pistol, reaction shoot/double tap at 1 metre out to 20 metres aimed, at a cardboard cutout. If there is time to aim at 20-25 metres, there might also be time to back out. The fact is, Police shootings are usually at very close quarters, just like the one in CHCH.



....

Patrick,

Just to let you know where i am comming from.

I compete in Cowboy Action Shooting. The pistol part is on steel targets (.5 m x .5m approx) shot at anything from 10-30 meters. Using single action pistols and drawn from the holster at the sound of a buzzer. I can usually get 10 shots off, all on target in 10-15 seconds. Thats slow. Top shooters can do it in 3-4 seconds.

At an average stage and under time we shoot usually 10 pistol (2 single shot pistiols with 5 rounds in each), 10 rifle (lever action) and 4-6 12 guage shotgun. On a standard run the good boys can do all this in under 20 seconds total, all in that 1/2 meter square plate. I usually take 30-40 seconds (I'm fat and slow). I also shoot that black popwder stuff and have trouble seeing through the clouds of white smoke.

I'm not saying that the police should be as fast as the top shooters but they should be as fast and as accurate as the middle range shooters. It only takes a little more practice and training.

I would also like to point out that there has never been an incident of anyone being accidentally shot at any competition in NZ. Speed is our game but safety our creed

[Delerium]

fallacie eh, is that sorta like flacid?

[Patrick]

Annette King per chance? Maybe Hulen?

Too scary, makes Policemen cry and run away, screaming...

not as many times as you've used fallacy arguments and that's the point. Your fallaies are a huge sign pointing out that your argument is NOT based on logic.

So wrong... many witnesses saying that the guy had a go with the hammer, but that is not factual in your realm and all these witnesses are wrong because it is a fallacy?

"Logic" tells me that the Policeman, fearing for his own life, shot this dude because he was having a go at him with a hammer, a "logic" backed up by multiple INDEPENDANT witnesses.

It is your argument that simply doesn't make sense and is illogical. He shot the guy for breaking windows, standing there with his hands at his sides, right?

Carry on.... if you must.... You don't need to dumb it down, you're doing a fine job on your own already. "Two short planks" comes to mind for some reason.

My point is clear, just not to you...

I'm not saying that the police should be as fast as the top shooters but they should be as fast and as accurate as the middle range shooters. It only takes a little more practice and training.

Thanks MM, I sort of followed where you were at from earlier posts. You probably also get to go to the range whenever you like. We get a day once every 6 months. Thats it.

[Mr Merde]

...

Thanks MM, I sort of followed where you were at from earlier posts. You probably also get to go to the range whenever you like. We get a day once every 6 months. Thats it.

Damm budget constraints and the upper echolon not giving the lower ranks the tools and or training/time needed to perform duties correctly.

Doesnt just happen here. I used to shoot a competition once a year in Cardiff against the South Wales armed offenders squad. 10 man team each.

We shot the discipline called PP1, as used by the FBI, which involved turning targets and time constraints. They never had anyone in their team place higher than 8th overall out of the 20 shooters total. They just didnt have the range time. They had the benifit of using our pistol range once a week for an afternoon but just couldnt get the shill up in that short time.

Merde

[Pex Adams]

I'm not going to read all of this - however my initial thoughts to this tread are

There's Klingon on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow
There's Klingon on the starboard bow; JIM

Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men.

It's worse than that, he's dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead, Jim;
it's worse than that, he's dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Ydy90H4rY