Police shoot and kill another person

**scumdog** · 5th October 2007, 10:39

This place will be like, so BORING next week.

An endless stream of logic, fact and sense it will be.....no "what ifs", "he should haves" "they would have been better to" "I know"......

But there will be opinions allowed from both sides I dare say.

**idleidolidyll** · 5th October 2007, 10:58

as i said on another thread: everybody lies and everybody deceives themselves

a perfect example................

**Clockwork** · 5th October 2007, 10:59

I'd like to add my support to idle's post #610 I'm not here to condemn the Cop so much as the system. I recently read this opinion piece by John Minto, I never have agreed with much he has said but here I felt he had some good points.

Last night I watched one of those American Police docos where Cops are followed around by a camera, in one incident I saw 2 Cops draw guns on an armed intruder and although shots were fired (and not all of the action was caught on camera), ultimately the cops (eventually 5 of them) did manage to dis-arm and wrestle a pretty determined maniac into submission. The following story, two cops are attempting to reason with some ranting woman in a car, one cop on each side of her car, she pulls a knife and lunges for the one on the drivers side, he didn't draw is gun, he ran away, she charged after him and the Cop from the other side of the car chases her and grounds her, again he didn't draw his gun although he knew exactly what was going down.

There have been many other stories of Police in New Zealand dis-arming violent armed (not guns) offenders where no guns have been available to them. Scary shit but they seem to be able to do it quite often.

In the end what troubles me most about this whole incident is how a member of our supposedly unarmed Police turned up to a domestic incident carrying a gun, and would he have handled the matter differently if he hadn't had the gun.

I'm also troubled by the line that we don't pay Cops enough to come home in a box. Surely we pay them better than our soldiers but don't we/they accept that they may well come home in a box?

Finally, the bitching about the roll of the media in this matter, they're simply reporting witness statements... sure they're looking for an angle but they are not inventing this stuff. Tell me this, if they are SO anti Police why do they ALL collude to keep the Officer's name a secret. Our courts have already declared that the public has a right to know this information but look at the shit storm being aimed at Truth for daring to break the embargo!

**Tank** · 5th October 2007, 11:00

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

Basically, if you fel uncomfortable about someone's argument style and can't see their logic, there's a good chance they're using one of these fallacies.

Your referring to yourself as well right?

**idleidolidyll** · 5th October 2007, 11:06

certainly

i'm not gonna lie to you and say i'm a saint. my principle sin here is ad hominem and i make no bones about that. it's usually in retaliation but sometimes not.

if you're concerned, go to that website and identify my, or someone elses fallacies.

it'll make you better in debate/discussion

**idleidolidyll** · 5th October 2007, 11:12

Clockwork:

I just read your link and I have to say first that my comments were completely indpendent and I had never read this prior to your post.
However, Minto's article echoes almost to the letter the sentiments I have offered here and I find myself in admiration of him again.

No doubt some ex red brigader will want to kick him in the teeth again for attacking the party line (cop) but he makes a very compelling case.

**Edbear** · 5th October 2007, 16:37

I have been following this thread pretty much all the way through, and with all the angst and argy-bargy going on, one issue seems to have been studiously avoided.

The Police were called to a domestic disturbance, a hyped-up angry man smashing things up with a hammer.

Question 1. "What are the Police going to think, and how are they going to respond? ie: What is the proceedure?"

Question 2. "When faced with such a situation as this, do the Police have the responsibility to attempt to stop the offender smashing things with a hammer, or are they supposed to stand back and let him continue?"

Question 3. "If the Police have the responsibility to attempt to stop him, how do they go about it - do they respond to the call unarmed, or do they come ready for serious trouble?"

Question 4. "How, likely, did the Cop address the offender in the first instance -what would he have said?"

Question 5. "Was it the Cop who escalated the situation or was it the offender - was the Cop attempting to calm the man down and get him to surrender the weapon?"

Question 5. "Who in their right mind attacks a Policeman armed with a pistol when you only have a hammer?"

I believe the situation is regrettable in that it resulted in the death of a man who, from all reports was acting somewhat out of character, but so many people would rather blame anyone or anything else, other than the one breaking the law. Even in his hyped up state, he would have understood the risk he was taking. He knew what he was doing was wrong, so I will be interested to find out why he was so angry and reckless.

Some commit suicide, some brood, some attack. Ultimately we must be responsible for our actions and if we are reckless and suffer the consequences, we can really only blame ourselves.

**scumdog** · 5th October 2007, 16:54

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

No doubt some ex red brigader will want to kick him in the teeth again for attacking the party line (cop) but he makes a very compelling case.

Mintos a twat.

Now where do I pick up my subscription to the 'party line', I feel I have missed out on it.

**idleidolidyll** · 5th October 2007, 18:19

Originally Posted by scumdog

Mintos a twat.

Now where do I pick up my subscription to the 'party line', I feel I have missed out on it.

oh i think you're well and truly indoctrinated......

**davereid** · 5th October 2007, 18:57

My brother-in-law is a cop.

We were having a beer and discussing the miserable state of the publics view of the police.

He asked me "if you saw me getting a hiding would you help ?"

I said "Nah, it would be to easy for you to identify me"

**puddy** · 5th October 2007, 22:15

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

So you want to live in a fascist police state where they serve themselves and don't care about people. A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.
Tell ya what, why don't you fuck off and live your dream in Amerikkka. I for one prefer a place where people are treated with humanity and the police serve the people not politicians and companies.

The cynical whine by police that this is a case for tasers is sickening. It's actually a case for better training for police and the REMOVAL of dangerous weapons from trigger happy nutcases.
Don't tell me there was no other choice; that's bullshit. Back off and let the guy smash up some more property; insurance will cover the damage. In the meantime work on some non lethal strategies. Get some gun fired deer/goat nets etc. Only trigger happy wankers would kill a person without considering other means to bring him under control. Fuck the police, they don't have my respect and given their fascism, they don't deserve it either.

It's time we dumper the Police Complaints Authority and introduced a truly impartial investigation service to stop these police abuses of power.

Sounds fair. Tell ya what, I'll go back to my Nazi heritage and you go find that guy Potter and start another Hippy commune thingy. If ya don't get any takers, you can always interfere with each other!

**puddy** · 5th October 2007, 22:17

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

So you want to live in a fascist police state where they serve themselves and don't care about people. A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.
Tell ya what, why don't you fuck off and live your dream in Amerikkka. I for one prefer a place where people are treated with humanity and the police serve the people not politicians and companies.

The cynical whine by police that this is a case for tasers is sickening. It's actually a case for better training for police and the REMOVAL of dangerous weapons from trigger happy nutcases.
Don't tell me there was no other choice; that's bullshit. Back off and let the guy smash up some more property; insurance will cover the damage. In the meantime work on some non lethal strategies. Get some gun fired deer/goat nets etc. Only trigger happy wankers would kill a person without considering other means to bring him under control. Fuck the police, they don't have my respect and given their fascism, they don't deserve it either.

It's time we dumper the Police Complaints Authority and introduced a truly impartial investigation service to stop these police abuses of power.

Like I said!.......soft-cock bleeding heart liberals......

**puddy** · 5th October 2007, 22:27

Hey Scumdog, give Idol... his girlfriend back and he won't be so anti-Police!

**idleidolidyll** · 6th October 2007, 08:01

Originally Posted by puddy

Like I said!.......soft-cock bleeding heart liberals......

until they shoot you or yours of course and then you'll be the whining bitch.

callous sociopaths like you are what gets halfwit megalomaniacs like Bush elected