Global warming - more bad news !

[Ocean1]

Interestingly tallow (animal fat) is a lucrative product for purposes other than biofuel, to a point where it's probably too expensive an option for fuelling vehicles. It's used for all sorts of purposes in food production, including manufacture of some margarines.

In the greater scheme of things too, there's not really that much of it to make a significant difference. This is also true of waste vegetable oils. While the odd individual may be able to adapt and run a vehicle on it, there's probably only enough of the stuff in New Zealand to power a few thousand vehicles.

All true, but it is an alternative fuel source, no matter how small. The main by-product is glycerine, at far higher volumes than current demands require, (mostly soap and make-up) so you've got disposal costs to worry about also.

[idleidolidyll]

So if the yanks or kiwi's or who ever grew a crop that could make bio-fuel that is appropriate for their climate etc, and grew it in a more sustainable way? None of the shit you mention Idle, plus no removing of other crops to create these crops etc... then it would be viable?

who knows for sure here? none of us are biofuel scientists and we all have to rely on what we are told or what we can research ourselves.

big business is terrified of some ideas because the same ideas could be used to generate energy locally and take power out of their hands. that kind of self serving capitalism sadly drives a lot of research: "what can we design that will give us a monopoly?"

btw: what specific 'shit' i mention? none of it was shit

[idleidolidyll]

All true, but it is an alternative fuel source, no matter how small. The main by-product is glycerine, at far higher volumes than current demands require, (mostly soap and make-up) so you've got disposal costs to worry about also.

actually glycerine is a very useful product and has a large number of uses:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html

[Joni]

btw: what specific 'shit' i mention? none of it was shit

its a term, not a reference to the content of your post which I felt was good...

shit = stuff

Old fella... sheeesh!

[Mr Merde]

III and Joni almost agreeing on something

run for cover the sky is falling

[Ocean1]

actually glycerine is a very useful product and has a large number of uses:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html

Yup, high grade glycerine is marketable, but the prices are already dropping as a result of over-supply. Also, the un-processed by-product of biofuel manufacture from animal fats is far from pure. It can be made so, obviously, but the cost of doing so makes it cost-negative for all but large industrial process systems. The market within NZ is also shrinking, with Colgate Palmolive and several other major users disappearing offshore.

[Joni]

III and Joni almost agreeing on something

run for cover the sky is falling

Yeah, I thought the same thing...

[Winston001]

The most efficient source of bio-fuel is cellulose - trees, but at present the technology is only at laboratory level. There is research being done to see if willow saplings will work here in NZ as a source.

One big problem isthe eficency of bio-fuel vs oil. A litre of oil provides 14 times as much energy as is required to produce it. Bio-fuel provides from 0.8 to 1.2 times the amount of energy. In other words depending on how efficent your plant is, it costs more energy or at best is just above a zero sum game for bio-fuel.

Why would rational selfish humans choose bio-fuel over oil? That is the big problem.

[idleidolidyll]

III and Joni almost agreeing on something

run for cover the sky is falling

don't worry; i'll find a point of difference to argue about..................

[Ocean1]

Why would rational selfish humans choose bio-fuel over oil? That is the big problem.

Ah, logic. Works bloody well for actually DOING shit, but don't bring it to a political bunfight eh?

Sorry, bit disenchanted with my fellow man today, probably somat I ate...

[Ocean1]

don't worry; i'll find a point of difference to argue about..................

Dude if'n ya can't find a difference between you and her you best shuffle off to the infirmery before advanced senility really sets in.

[idleidolidyll]

Dude if'n ya can't find a difference between you and her you best shuffle off to the infirmery before advanced senility really sets in.

well said

i wouldn't want to be her and i'm sure she feels the same about me

too late regarding the senility though.........

[idleidolidyll]

Why would rational selfish humans choose bio-fuel over oil? That is the big problem.

sad fact is that most people will only choose the easiest/cheapest option

[Pwalo]

sad fact is that most people will only choose the easiest/cheapest option

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's the wrong option. There will be alternatives to oil/petroleum, but it's not going to happen until it's commercially viable.

At the moment none of the alternatives(as far as I am aware), can't compete with oil on a cost to produce or energy storage capability.

Personally I think that economy and effeciency (conservation I guess) are what manufacturers can concentrate on. Besides if we were truly worried about the energy thing we wouldn't be riding motorcycles or sitting in front of PCs.

[Hitcher]

Here's the info on using grasses. There's no reason we couldn't do the same in NZ, we have plenty of good grasslands and lots of water in the right places

Well, no we don't actually. Many people presume that because it rains all the time and that the Waikato is generally green when they're trolleying down to Ruapehu for a weekend on the piste, that there is plenty of water around for irrigating agricultural production. And our "grasslands" are basically hydroponics. New Zealand's soils are geologically new, compared to those found in other countries, and often deficient in trace elements or contain soil minerals (e.g. allophane) that lock up essential plant-growing minerals like phosphate.

It is only really the west coasts or more westerly aspects of New Zealand that have comparatively reliable rainfall. Expansion of dairying and other water-hungry production systems into east coast regions is putting increasing pressure on scarce river-run and, more worryingly, groundwater aquifers, to a point where regions like Canterbury and North Otago are already overusing available freshwater. Indeed in many instances dairy farmers are overtly wasting water.

Countries like Brazil that have been manufacturing biofuels for many years rely fast-growing tropical crops like sugar cane. New Zealand does not (yet) have even a sub-tropical climate, so let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

We need to be firmly committed to sustainability in everything we do. And the manufacture of biofuels should be no exception.