Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[idleidolidyll]

Thats the ideal situation unfortunately.

What we get in this "the real world" is government that decides that, beacuse they managed to convince enough people that they may have a means to give them more, they know what is best for us and we shouldnt even question them.

The only time they pay even lip service to us the people, is election time where we are conned tha we can make a difference.

We are not served by the government we are governed by them. They are our lords and we at best are their servants, at worse their serfs.

Sorry if I sound cynical but I personally have serious concerns about a person or group of people who wish to have power over another group.
I honestly believe that those we have in govenment now are the biggest criminals we have and that they do it all in the name of "whats best for us" whilst lining their pockets with everything they can get.

That's true to some extent but less so in NZ than in many other countries and we have MMP to thank for that.
The WORST outcome at the next election would be for either National or Labour to get an outright majority and have the power to push through any policy they wanted without support from any other party; that would be no different to the Yanks or to NZ before MMP.

Of the two, an outright National win would be the greatest tragedy. National will sell out to foreign interests in a blink.

[nadroj]

The Skyhawks are in Safe Air's big shed at RNZAF Woodbourne.

Not for long....
They are being prepared with a waterproofing for outside storeage to make room for C130 makeovers.

[Robert Taylor]

Not for long....
They are being prepared with a waterproofing for outside storeage to make room for C130 makeovers.

Well then, they could be reinstated if the incoming majority National Govt has the intestinal fortitude to do so, excepting the head moron in the sisterhood also deliberately did her best to destroy the infrastructure that supported them. This is one area that tax dollars should be appropriately spent, subject to an upgrade with more modern strike jets.

[scumdog]

Of the two, an outright National win would be the greatest tragedy. National will sell out to foreign interests in a blink.

Unlike Labour who seem content to let NZ business after NZ business close their doors and drift off-shore as they are at present....?

[kelleyb]

Swiss Divided on Immigration Issues

A bit off topic with regards to Kiwi politics, but I thought this was an interesting article on the upcoming elections in Switzerland.


Far-right Swiss party divides nation on immigrant issue
By Elaine Sciolino
Sunday, October 7, 2007
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SCHWERZENBACH, Switzerland: The posters taped on the walls at a political rally here capture the rawness of Switzerland's national electoral campaign: Three white sheep stand on the Swiss flag, as one of them kicks a single black sheep away.

"For Greater Security," the poster reads.

The poster is not the creation of a fringe movement, but of the most powerful party in Switzerland's federal Parliament and a member of the coalition government, an extreme-right party called the Swiss People's Party, or SVP. It has been distributed in a mass mailing to Swiss households, reproduced in newspapers and magazines and hung as huge billboards across the country.

As voters prepare to go to the polls for a general election in two weeks, the poster - and the party's underlying message - has polarized a country that prides itself on peaceful consensus in politics, neutrality in foreign policy and tolerance in human relations.

Suddenly, the campaign has turned into a nationwide debate over the place of immigrants in one of the world's oldest democracies and over what it means to be Swiss.

"The poster is disgusting, unacceptable," Micheline Calmy-Rey, president of Switzerland under a rotation system, said in an interview. "It stigmatizes others and plays on the fear factor and in that sense it's dangerous. The campaign does not correspond to Switzerland's multicultural openness to the world. And I am asking all Swiss who do not agree with its message to have the courage to speak out."

Interior Minister Pascal Couchepin, of the Free Democratic Party, has even suggested that the SVP's worship of Christoph Blocher, the billionaire who is the party's driving force and the current justice minister, is reminiscent of that of Italian Fascists for Mussolini.

On Saturday, a march of several thousand SVP supporters in Bern ended in clashes between hundreds of opposing demonstrators, who threw rocks, and riot police officers, who used tear gas to disperse them. The opponents of the SVP rally, organized by a group called the "Black Sheep Committee," were trying to prevent the SVP supporters from marching to Parliament.]

The message of the party resonates loudly among voters who have seen the country of 7.5 million people become a haven for foreigners, including political refugees from places like Kosovo and Rwanda. Polls indicate that the rightist party is poised to win the largest number of seats in Parliament in the election, as it did in national elections in 2003, when its populist language gave it nearly 27 percent of the vote.

"Our political enemies think the poster is racist, but it just gives a simple message," said Bruno Walliser, a chimney sweep who is running for Parliament on the party ticket at the Schwerzenbach rally, on a farm outside of Zurich. "The black sheep is not any black sheep that doesn't fit into the family. It's the foreign criminal who doesn't belong here, the one that doesn't obey Swiss law. We don't want him."

More than 20 percent of Swiss inhabitants are foreign nationals, and the SVP argues that a disproportionate number of them are law-breakers. The party says many of the country's drug dealers are foreign, and according to federal statistics about 70 percent of the prison population is non-Swiss.

As part of its platform, the SVP party has launched a campaign seeking the 100,000 signatures necessary to force a referendum to allow judges to deport foreigners who commit serious crimes after they have served their prison sentences. More ominously, the measure also calls for the deportation of the entire family of a convicted criminal under the age of 18.

Human rights advocates warn that the initiative is reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft, or kin liability, under which relatives of criminals were held responsible and punished for their crimes.

The party's political campaign has a much broader agenda than simply fighting crime. Its subliminal message is that the influx of foreigners has somehow polluted Swiss society, straining the social welfare system and threatening the very identity of the country.

Unlike France, where the far-right National Front leader, Jean-Marie Le Pen, campaigned for president last spring alongside black and ethnic Arab supporters, the SVP has taken a much cruder us-against-them approach.

The party's short, three-part film entitled "Heaven or Hell" in the current campaign clearly lays out its message. In the first segment, young men shoot heroin, steal handbags from old ladies, kick and beat up schoolboys, wield knives, and carry off a young woman. The second segment shows Muslims living in Switzerland - women in head scarves, men sitting not working.

The third segment shows "heavenly" Switzerland: men in suits rushing to work, logos of Swiss multinational corporations, farm harvests, experiments in laboratories, lakes, mountains, churches and goats. "The choice is clear: my home, our security," the film states.

It was withdrawn from the party's Web site after the male actors sued, arguing they were unaware of its purpose. But over beer and bratwurst at the Schwerzenbach political rally, Walliser screened it for the audience, saying, "I'm taking the liberty to show it anyway."

For Nelly Schneider, a 49-year-old secretary, the party's approach is "a little bit crass," but appealing nevertheless. "These foreigners abuse the system," she said after Walliser's presentation.

As most of the rest of Europe has moved to integrate, Switzerland has fiercely guarded its independence, staying out of the 27-country European Union and maintaining its status as a tax haven for the wealthy. It has perhaps the longest and most arduous process to become a citizen in all of Europe. Candidates typically must wait 12 years before being considered for citizenship.

Three years ago, the SVP blocked a move to liberalize the citizenship process, using the image of dark-skinned hands snatching at Swiss passports. And though the specter of terrorism has not been a driving issue in the country, some posters in southern Switzerland at the time showed a mock Swiss passport held by Osama bin Laden.

Foreigners, who make up one-fourth of the Swiss work force, complain that it is harder to get a job or rent an apartment without a Swiss passport, and that they endure harassment that Swiss citizens do not.

James Philippe, a 28-year-old Haitian who has lived in Switzerland for 14 years and works for Streetchurch, a Protestant storefront community organization, and as a hip-hop instructor, said he is regularly stopped by the police and required to show his papers and submit to body searches. He speaks German, French, Creole and English, but has yet to receive a Swiss passport.

"The police treat me like I'm somehow not human," he said.

End of Article.

[Pixie]

So who in the hell is the sisterhood serving? Certainly not Joe Average in NZ.

They are serving their ideology.
And making sure they keep the electorate on the bones of it's collective arse,so it continues to vote for them

[Pixie]

1080 A close cousin to Agent Orange, but not dangerous to any of us (TUI Moment)

Greeny/hippy bullshit;How can :

Agent Orange was a herbicide developed for military use. Chemically, the product was a 50/50 mix of two herbicides, 2,4,-D (2,4, dichlorophenoxyacetic acid) and 2,4,5-T (2,4,5 trichlorophenoxyacetic acid). These herbicides were both developed as weed killers in the 1940's, and were effective against broad leaf plants and several crops.

and:


Sodium Flouroacetate
(also known as sodium monofluoroacetate, compound 1080 or 1080) is a potent metabolic poison that occurs naturally as an anti-herbivore metabolite in various plants.

Be called "cousins"?


The problem with Agent Orange,was the dioxin contaminant it contained.
The same dioxin that is produced when chlorinated household water sterilises organic matter or when a good kiwi bloke burns rubbish in his backyard incinerator.

but we won't let ignorance of chemistry get in the way of some good hippy propaganda,will we?

[Robert Taylor]

They are serving their ideology.
And making sure they keep the electorate on the bones of it's collective arse,so it continues to vote for them

Absolutely, and have you noticed that Clark being present at major sporting fixtures mostly reaps a bad result

[Keystone19]

Absolutely, and have you noticed that Clark being present at major sporting fixtures mostly reaps a bad result

Bahahahaha...are you blaming poor Helen for the All Blacks losing the rugby...

You realise though that once Helen has done her dash and we gain a new prime minister (of course that is several elections away) she will simply move on to bigger and better things than leading New Zealand. I should think she will be the head of the UN, WHO and/or the World Bank sooner or later.

Go Helen...

[Robert Taylor]

Bahahahaha...are you blaming poor Helen for the All Blacks losing the rugby...

You realise though that once Helen has done her dash and we gain a new prime minister (of course that is several elections away) she will simply move on to bigger and better things than leading New Zealand. I should think she will be the head of the UN, WHO and/or the World Bank sooner or later.

Go Helen...

AND THE WEATHER! When she ( it? ) gets to the UN she will feel comfortable with her communist mates and will spread her poison even further. BTW on my soujourns overseas I actually make apologies about being from a country run by THAT woman.

Did you know she grew her husband in her hydroponics garden?

Jill, youve got a similarly wicked streak in you and I know youre just trying to wind me up. Now get back to work, as must I....

Looking forward to seeing you ride that by product of filthy capitalism, out of step with the eco-greens. We all suffer levels of hypocrisy, even ILLOGICALOLAYOLOAYOLAY on this thread

[Mr Merde]

Greeny/hippy bullshit;How can :

Agent Orange was a herbicide developed for military use. Chemically, the product was a 50/50 mix of two herbicides, 2,4,-D (2,4, dichlorophenoxyacetic acid) and 2,4,5-T (2,4,5 trichlorophenoxyacetic acid). These herbicides were both developed as weed killers in the 1940's, and were effective against broad leaf plants and several crops.

and:


Sodium Flouroacetate
(also known as sodium monofluoroacetate, compound 1080 or 1080) is a potent metabolic poison that occurs naturally as an anti-herbivore metabolite in various plants.

Be called "cousins"?


The problem with Agent Orange,was the dioxin contaminant it contained.
The same dioxin that is produced when chlorinated household water sterilises organic matter or when a good kiwi bloke burns rubbish in his backyard incinerator.

but we won't let ignorance of chemistry get in the way of some good hippy propaganda,will we?

I thank you for the information. Always good to know when one has it wrong.

As to hippie, far from it.

I am a hunter who enjoys his chosen sport and who has been through areas where 1080 has been delivered by air.

Not even the sound on an insect.

How come all other countries in the world has banned distrubution of this poison by airr but NZ. Cost.



As to Agent Orange, that chemical our beloved government (whichever party) claims was never dropped on our troops.

That shit is a major reason for the death of my father aged 68. 3/4 of his lung capacity gone. No operation on a heart complaint.

He told me he used to wake up in Nui Dat (NZ base in Sth Vietnam) covered in the stuff. It was in their water and in their food.

[avgas]

I agree. Michael Schumacher is another good example of one who has donated millions. Perhaps these sort of people are in fact the ''ultimate redistributors'' The difference being that people have been happy to part with money to witness their performance firsthand.

Money is cheap.

[Mully]

Money is cheap.

Can I have some then??

[avgas]

There is a consistent theme that I am sure everyone can agree upon, POWER CORRUPTS. Be it Capitalism, communism or whatever.

While i agree with almost everything that you have said in that statement....i disagree on the final part.
Power doesn't corrupt, the corrupt seek the power.
The uncorrupted are happy living away from it all.

[avgas]

Can I have some then??

Yep - its all out there for you - all you have to do is spend you TIME and EFFORT