Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Ocean1]

capitalist and capitalism are quite different words. a capitalist is merely someone with great wealth invested somewhere.
capitalism is a system in which the control of economies is placed in the hands of the wealthy.

How the hell can they be quite different, they've got precisely the same root: Capital. According to dictionary.com your dreaded bogy man is nothing more than a person who invests capital in a business. His own fucking capital I might add, not the results of someone else’s enterprise and effort. Further: Capitalism: An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Some wealthy support socialism

Not for long they don't, socialism is not a system that allows sustainable individual wealth in any form. You may cite individuals but we both know that's meaningless, idiots of that flavour are rare but they can be found. The acid test is a comparison of socialist states with others, ideally with similar cultural and ethnographic roots. Like, say the GDR and FRG, compare away.

You continue to present utilitarian systems as moral solutions, Socialism fails utterly to protect the rights of the individual, and therefore is completely ineffective in supporting the rights of the collective. Capitalism is the only system to protect the rights of the individual.

You’re innate paranoia of business is rooted in the single misapprehension that property is the inalienable right of everyone. Wake up, it’s the direct result of productive effort, the production of which is contingent on individual rights, specifically the right to the results of that effort. The political rights of the collective community can feasibly be only the protection of that and other individual rights, not the right to wealth itself.

[scumdog]

Mehh, socialism? - alive and well and working in NZ.

Result? - a lot of people have no ambition to be capitalists, in fact no ambition 'cos the State pays for their chosen lifestyle, handed to them on a plate.

On the other hand in a true Communist society how long would that lifestyle last???

Maybe we should take a page out of another 'socialist' country in the past which only allowed one child per family - that way they would be free from raising kids and could work! Mwahahahahah!!! - and the famliy benefit pay-out would be less too - woohoo!.

[Robert Taylor]

No, the initial slur was made by you and you have no fucking idea what i do or how many hours i work

however, a recent study reported in New Scientist confirms that men who work 60 hours or more per week have a significantly greater incident of heart attack than those who work 40 hours or less.

i'm not interested in dying rich but young, i'm interested in living a long happy life

Its time then that you were as transparent as I am about what I do, spill the beans! BTW, frequent use of expletives usually comes from those with a poor command of the English language. You dissapoint me on that score because in spite of your views ( that we can happily disagree on ) you have demonstrated a very good command of the language.

[Robert Taylor]

Mehh, socialism? - alive and well and working in NZ.

Result? - a lot of people have no ambition to be capatalists, in fact no ambition 'cos the State pays for their chosen lifestyle, handed to them on a plate.

On the other hand in a true Communist society how long would that lifestyle last???

Maybe we should take a page out of another 'socialist' country in the past which only allowed one child per family - that way they would be free from raising kids and could work! Mwahahahahah!!! - and the famliy benefit pay-out would be less too - woohoo!.

Then we should all vote Green ( red in the middle ), all stop work, live off the Government beacuse they have this magic pool of money ( from somewhere ) , smoke lots of drugs and pretend everything is alllllllllllllllllllllll okay!

[Ocean1]

Mehh, socialism? - alive and well and working in NZ.

Result? - a lot of people have no ambition to be capatalists, in fact no ambition 'cos the State pays for their chosen lifestyle, handed to them on a plate.

Most people aspire to "have stuff". The difference is simply the proposed source of "stuff".

'Scuse, it's way past Wednesday, I have to go acquire sufficient stuff to meet the aspirations of Hulin'z lot.

[TDC]

That depends on YOUR definition of a full day. You know your posts smack of ''my wedding tackle is bigger than yours''. That puts a finger on it.

Just a finger!!!

[MisterD]

My apologies, that was off the cuff and from memory: the actual title was "Greatest Thinker of the Last Millenium"

I gave him LESS credit than seems to have been deserved.

The choice was actually through an opinion poll and yes, socialists AND capitalists all had the opportunity to vote.

A BBC online poll? So KM won it because most of the voters live in Highgate and recognised the name from the fact that he's in their cemetary.

[davereid]

Capitalism is about control (of resources) by capitalists: a small number of wealthy individuals, whilst socialism is about control being in the hands of the people or representatives of the people (democracy).

Hmm, that explains why I am enslaved to the state. The only resource in my business is me. So, for the greater good, control of me must be vested in the state.

At least I've got it sorted now !

[Robert Taylor]

Hmm, that explains why I am enslaved to the state. The only resource in my business is me. So, for the greater good, control of me must be vested in the state.

At least I've got it sorted now !

Thats right, and dont dare to disagree! Youll get your hand smacked and be called a nasty thieving capitalist.

[Robert Taylor]

Thats right, and dont dare to disagree! Youll get your hand smacked and be called a nasty thieving capitalist.

Or verbally vilified by some great long diatribe out of a Sociliast comic book!

[Usarka]

I think everyone in the country who earns over $80,000 should embrace the welfare system, quit their jobs or close up shop and go on the dole.

Wonder how long the country would last.

Just a beer fuelled (monteiths black tonight) thought before i hit the hey (sick(sic)).....

[98tls]

Hmm, that explains why I am enslaved to the state. The only resource in my business is me. So, for the greater good, control of me must be vested in the state.

At least I've got it sorted now !

And as you already have two bikes for gods sake dontgo buying a third as that would reek of success leaving you open to all forms of abuse.

[idleidolidyll]

Really busy at present and no time to reply to the plethora of quotes i have or read the thread through but hope to be back later today and poke a few eyes out.

In the meantime for those who think this government is a failure on economic policy:

Poverty - gaps finally closing

5:00AM Friday October 19, 2007
By Simon Collins

Gaps between rich and poor New Zealanders have finally started to close.
Ethnic groups and regions that have lagged behind for years are starting to share in economic growth.
The Ministry of Social Development's annual Social Report shows shrinking gaps between Maori and Europeans in important areas such as education and income.
And unemployment has come down more quickly in poor regions such as Northland, Gisborne and Hawkes Bay than in rich regions such as Auckland and Wellington.
The ministry's policy manager of social outcomes, Conal Smith, said groups that had suffered most in the recession of the early 1990s were now profiting from prosperity.
"We are in the middle of one of the longest periods of sustained prosperity since the end of World War II, so you'd be a little bit surprised if this wasn't happening," he said.
"For Maori, we see improvements in almost everything we can compare except obesity, and in that case Maori have become only slightly more obese and the population as a whole has got quite a bit more obese.


"The gaps are closing in life expectancy, employment, unemployment and housing affordability."
Not all the figures are so straightforward. The gap between average Maori and European life expectancy widened by 2.4 years between 1985 and 1997, as Maori suffered more from job losses in previously state-owned industries such as forestry.
The gap has narrowed since the mid-90s, but by only 31 weeks, so Europeans still live relatively longer than Maori now than they did 20 years ago.
Maori unemployment has dropped dramatically, from a peak of 25.4 per cent in 1992 to 7.9 per cent last year.
But the European unemployment rate has also dropped, from 7.9 per cent to 2.7 per cent, so the gap has narrowed only slightly.
Maori are more clearly catching up in median incomes, which rose by 15 per cent for Maori between 1997 and last year against 13 per cent for Europeans.
And the proportion of Maori leaving school with at least the final-year qualification of level 2 in the National Certificate of Educational Achievement has jumped from 28.8 per cent to 36.7 per cent in the past three years - up from 50 per cent to 56 per cent of the European rate.
The four regions showing the fastest growth in incomes between the 2001 and 2006 censuses were all in the traditionally slower-growing South Island.
Otago's median income was up 15.5 per cent, Southland's 15.2 per cent, Canterbury's 14.4 per cent and Nelson/Marlborough/West Coast 13.5 per cent.
The two richest regions, Wellington and Auckland, were under the 11.8 per cent national average increase.
The proportion of people in work grew fastest in Northland, which in 2001 had the lowest employment rate.
The Bay of Plenty, which had the second-lowest employment rate five years ago, had the second-biggest jobs increase.
Wellington and Auckland lifted their employment rates by only about half or less of the national increase.

[scumdog]

In the meantime for those who think this government is a failure on economic policy:

Poverty - gaps finally closing

5:00AM Friday October 19, 2007
By Simon Collins

Gaps between rich and poor New Zealanders have finally started to close.
Ethnic groups and regions that have lagged behind for years are starting to share in economic growth.

Mehh, probably because the broken-arses are getting better hand-outs and tax-breaks etc....

[Clockwork]

On one of the news programs last night there was a story about a new conveinevce meal omlet/pizza of some description that has recently been launched in the US. The angle of the story was that this product was seriously large and almost certainly less than wholesome in its nutritional value. Basically the were just revisiting the "Up-size me" debate.

Toward the end of the item it was mentioned that there is currently a bill in progress in the US known as the Cheeseburger bill which is designed to stop people suing the fast food industry for their obesity problems.

It seems to me that businesses/capitalism object to Governments intervening in the market place to protect society but seem to be quite happy to lobby for such intervention to protect their own interests.

Smells a bit hypocritical to me.