Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Grahameeboy]

yes, it has been quite entertaining and i'm still on to buy the first beer.

have a great trip

So you believe in Socialism then?

[Joni]

THat test was very interesting Idle.... I fell in the area I though I would... but there were a ew surprises too!

[idleidolidyll]

Dude, it's your choice, however you take life too seriously.

You show a definition of Capitalist and then say that this is not necessarily the case?

No, i showed an authoritative definition of capitalism and said that the core definition remains the same even though tactics have changed somewhat.

We have the ability to control our own lives but think others do.........it's about shuffling the responsibility. When things don't go our way we blame someone else.

that's debatable. many say we are a product of our environment and that free will is therefore an illusion.

I have my faith and yes you can attack me for it, call be delusionable etc, however, I have freedom and don't consider that my life is controlled by Capitalists etc

but your life is controlled by your faith and that faith was probably largely an accident of birth. If you'd been born in Saudi Arabia you'd have been Muslim. Free will? I wonder.

Life is short and debates are long.

We do have freedom, we just don't realise it sometimes.

We have freedom as long as we are able to control our own lives. Placing that control in the hands of others (capitalists if you wish) or allowing them to take power removes or reduces our free will considerably.

[idleidolidyll]

THat test was very interesting Idle.... I fell in the area I though I would... but there were a ew surprises too!

yes it is and even though, like all tests, it's flawed, it at least gives a uniform guide to our actual positions in the political worlds outside of propaganda.

[Joni]

yes it is and even though, like all tests, it's flawed, it at least gives a uniform guide to our actual positions in the political worlds outside of propaganda.

Yup... I knew I would fall in the liberal area (so that was a confirmation of what I knew)... but I was closer to the authoritarian than I though I would be (the surpirse)...

[Grahameeboy]

We have freedom as long as we are able to control our own lives. Placing that control in the hands of others (capitalists if you wish) or allowing them to take power removes or reduces our free will considerably.

I became a Christian 2 years ago aged 43 so my choice............aharr......got you there eh

Well I must be lucky cause I feel that I have freedom and do not place the control in the hands of others. That is the difference.

[slowpoke]

Yup... I knew I would fall in the liberal area (so that was a confirmation of what I knew)... but I was closer to the authoritarian than I though I would be (the surpirse)...

Yup, very very interesting test and well worth the time taken to do it. My results:
Economic Left/Right: -7.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15

Come the revolution brothers!

[davereid]

We have freedom as long as we are able to control our own lives. Placing that control in the hands of others (capitalists if you wish) or allowing them to take power removes or reduces our free will considerably.

But thats exactly what socialisim does. It takes by force, like Robin Hood, using the funds extracted at gunpoint to fund it's own agendas and supporters.

If your tax demand had a checklist, and you could choose the services you supported and only had to pay for those you agreed to, tax revenues would plummet.

Socialisim works by spending other peoples money.

[imdying]

We have freedom as long as we are able to control our own lives. Placing that control in the hands of others (capitalists if you wish) or allowing them to take power removes or reduces our free will considerably.

But is it all bad? I'm happy to sell 40 hours a week of my life to them for a house and some motorbikes Would be nice not to have to work, but I don't expect a free ride

[idleidolidyll]

I have my faith and yes you can attack me for it, call be delusionable etc,

Graemeboy;

I might disagree with the existence of a deity and believe that organised religion is abusive and the cause of a great deal of humanity's problems but I don't for a minute deny you the right to practice what you believe in as long as you don't abuse others in doing so.

What REALLY pisses me off though is that the opposite is not quite as true.

I refuse to sing the NZ National Anthem for instance because MY right NOT to believe in a deity is abused and ignored in that to support my country I am expected to beg 'god' for the privelage.

Change the flag? I don't give a damn! Get rid of that divisive bloody national anthem so all of us can feel like New Zealanders? FUCK YES!

[idleidolidyll]

But is it all bad? I'm happy to sell 40 hours a week of my life to them for a house and some motorbikes Would be nice not to have to work, but I don't expect a free ride

no, i'm not trying to promote a black or white fallacy argument, i understand there are many shades of grey and have said as much on a number of occassions

[idleidolidyll]

But thats exactly what socialisim does. It takes by force, like Robin Hood, using the funds extracted at gunpoint to fund it's own agendas and supporters.

If your tax demand had a checklist, and you could choose the services you supported and only had to pay for those you agreed to, tax revenues would plummet.

Socialisim works by spending other peoples money.

No it doesn't; it gives power to the people collectively and then they as a group decide. In our system that is called democracy.

Capitalism is virtually the opposite and as evidenced by Bush, it certainly takes what it wants by force. One is a system where a minority gets to unilaterally control and the other is a system where people decide or their representatives decide for them.

tax is a necessary evil and serves to counter the fascism of self serving power crazy people by providing services out of the collective pocket that would otherwise be unlikely to be affordable for most.

You say socialism works by spending other peoples money. Maybe so but by far the most abusive system is capitalism which profits by 'spending' peoples lives and freedom.

long live Robin Hood.

letting capitalists serve themselves by getting rich off the blood and misery of mankind is far more vile.

[idleidolidyll]

I became a Christian 2 years ago aged 43 so my choice............aharr......got you there eh

Not really. In a largely christian based system you had few opportunities to be exposed to the truth about other religions. Your 'choice' was certainly weighted heavily by the circumstances of your birth.

Well I must be lucky cause I feel that I have freedom and do not place the control in the hands of others. That is the difference.

But don't christians place themselves in the hands of a non existant deity whose minions tell them what is right and what's not?

Sounds like a lack of control to me

[idleidolidyll]

Yup... I knew I would fall in the liberal area (so that was a confirmation of what I knew)... but I was closer to the authoritarian than I though I would be (the surpirse)...

haha! having felt your whip when you were moderating, I'm not at all surprised.

[idleidolidyll]

But thats exactly what socialisim does. It takes by force, like Robin Hood, using the funds extracted at gunpoint to fund it's own agendas and supporters.

I

please, spare the dramatics

it doesn't take tax by gunpoint and the agendas and supporters are the majority not the minority: that's the point

control in the hands of the majority to do their will not control in the hands of the minority to do their will

btw: capitalism as practiced by the USA and Britain has long used military and covert violence to control and manipulate entire economies.