New energy ideas

[Winston001]

Ocean posted this in the Climate thread and I think it is worthy of its own discussion:

The NZ government has fuck all resources. They have a little of the cash they've stolen from us left, but not enough uncommitted to social experiments to maintain the infrastructure we've got let alone get all inventive with new stuff. Nor do they have the tech personel resources to do it, they're all in Aus or Europe on a wee extended OE. We do have a few old bits of lab equipment kicking around CSIRO and a few other broom closets, will that do?

I could argue climate all day. Except I can't be fooked.
I can be fooked arguing energy, I think, maybe... is it time for my afternoon dram yet?

A little planning and basic engineering might produce solutions like the ones you suggest. I'm a great fan of massive overkill when it comes to engineering though, it's just a bunch of fun. Most of your suggestions have some unfortunate side effects too, but there's some that don't.

Wave generators do work, so far they just don't work on the scale we need without a bunch of difficult maintenance issues (hard to gat at). Seaborn windmills work well, self-regulating (they keel over in high wind), a mature, well understood technology. Just string a few tens of thousands of 'em off the south west coast. More efficient than land-bourn ones, and a bloody sight prettier, just need a fekin' big extension cord. Likely ecological impact: minimal. Cost of energy: high-ish. One problem with a similar scheme in the UK was that the air force put the kybosh on the development prototypes. Turns out their radar can't see past all dem rotating blades to where the ICBMs are. They did develop more radar-friendly ones from carbon fibre but by that time the budget was gone.

I wonder how many cubic kilometres of seawater flow through the Cook Straight twice every day? There's several metres difference in height either side of NZ for a fair bit of the day, we could partially dam that, bung in a shitload of turbines and walk away from energy shortage concerns for fekin ages. Ecological impact: slight. Cost of energy: not sure.

One for a few years time: How about we drill a hole about 5 - 6 Kilometres into some of the oceanic trenches that lurk off our eastern coast and bung a big superconducting cable down there. The thermal gradient is huge, and the cable maintains the same temperature throughout it's length, make steam, drive turbines. Ecological impact: zero. Cost of energy: depends on where the platform for the turbines is, probably competitive if they’re on the bottom.

Like any other ideas these all rely on one of the only two possible sources of energy available, internal tectonic sources (the moon is considered part of our system, although lunar tidal energy isn’t strictly internal it is similarly finite) and Solar (external). One estimate has enough solar energy falling on a few% of the planet’s surface at the equator to power every energy requirement we currently have (Fiji might do nicely). The energy contained in the thermal and kinetic tidal systems of the planet and it’s satellite are many orders of magnitude more than we’ll ever use before we shuffle off elsewhere. We just need to work on cost effective and ecologically clean ways to plug in.

Imagination is more important than knowledge, for knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world - stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. - Albert Einstein

[davereid]

Some good ideas there Winston. I'm skeptical about land based windpower. I have had a nose around the windfarm at the Tararuas. Those massive machines only generate a peak of 1.6Mw, and an average of less than 400kw. Scumdogs V8 will make 400kw with just a tiny squirt of Nitrous..

And we don't know how much energy was used in their manufacture, transportation, or the on going cost of keeping them going.

Its possible that the old coal fired power station may not be as bad as it is painted !

One thing we can say for sure, is that wind power HAS been good for the environment. 'Cos its so damn expensive thats its helped push the retail price of electricity up.

[ManDownUnder]

I'm all for highly distributed generation.

Solar panels on the roof of every house, overflowing surpluses into the grid for storage, taking it back when needed. I personally prefer to use an approach where renewable energy sources are tapped (as opposed to a hole in the ground where the temperature gradient would work, albeit at the expense of storder thermal energy from the core).

While it's impact is incredibly minimal... mankind has a way of finding an ever expanding use for resources such that we'd be chilling the core of the Earth in a reduced timeframe and have yet ANOTHER problem to solve.
They ran Rotorua out of thermal energy by simply plugging houses into vents for heating...

Use the sun and all her artifacts. Plants grow, converting CO2 into cellulose which han be broken down into fuel products. Solar energy has a thermal component which should be used where possible (higher efficiency) or converted to power where needed.

Plop a 400W wind turbine onto the roof of new houses. Plop a thermal/solar hotwater heater up there too, and pay people to insulate their houses properly.

We CAN use what we've got, people just don't think to do it.

Fuel? What about catching rain, and cracking it (into H2 and O2) using solar powered electorolysis. We'd need a lot of it for sure... so... why not line roads with solar cells to do that too? Hells bells - the things might even keep the noise away from neighbouring houses.... a dual use!

But do we do it? No? Why? Profit to be made in exhausting existing hydrocarbon supplies...

[Hitcher]

Solar PV has much to commend it, apart from the cost. Australia, bless it, has set up a Solar Cities programme which involves public/private partnerships to facilitate uptake which, in the selected solar cities, has been impressive to date. The new "sliver" PV technology is brilliant, and is being widely uptaken as part of the Aussie initiative.

While Australia has taken a hammering from pro-Kyoto tree huggers for not signing the blessed protocol, that country is actually doing shitloads more to address climate change than many other governments that have signed. Good on them.

[davereid]

I'm not sure that P.V. solar panels are such a good idea. They use massive amounts of energy in their construction.

I had a reference which argured they will provide less energy during their viable lifetime than they took to manufacture. I'll keep looking for it and post it if I find it.

Additionally, they produce DC electricity, which can't be directly fed back into the grid. So extra devices are required to convert the dc output to AC, and at a voltage that is useful.

And batteries, once again made of rare metals, mined and refined using oil are required if the energy is to be stored.

But solar is a great source of energy. Good house design to maximise natural heating. Assistance from the sun to heat water is good too.

[Bass]

They ran Rotorua out of thermal energy by simply plugging houses into vents for heating...

.

Actually, no they didn't.
They ran out of geothermally heated water - the water ran out, not the heat. These days, reinjection largely sorts that out but is uneconomic on a 1 house domestic scale.
Ocean's suggestion still has merit, bloody difficult, (superconducting cables are hard to find, heat pipes might be better), but still has merit

[Ocean1]

Actually, no they didn't.
They ran out of geothermally heated water - the water ran out, not the heat. These days, reinjection largely sorts that out but is uneconomic on a 1 house domestic scale.
Ocean's suggestion still has merit, bloody difficult, (superconducting cables are hard to find, heat pipes might be better), but still has merit

It's not my idea dude, I stole it from... can't remember, Larry Niven?

And yes, the quantity of energy represented by geothermal sources is not limitless, but it's fucking near so.

The superconductor technology to do that isn't far away, and that's not an idle guess, if we fail to bake ourselves to a crisp within the next 20 years then superconductors capable of living in those temperatures will almost certainly be viable. The rest is old technology.

Think a little bigger. Marry that technology with balanced-orbit towers anchored near the equator and you get a generator. Not sure of output potential, I can't find clean data. It's not nescessarily a viable stand-alone energy project, but it is a cheap by-product of the almost-free inter-solar space flight the tower provides.

Oh, and I stole that one too.

[Finn]

I've built a small solar (100watts) system at home with 300Ah of deep cycle batteries and an inverter. I use this system when camping so I can watch Sky amongst other stuff. I'm starting to use it at home to calculate what I would need to be self sufficient. With me it's got nothing to do with power bills or saving the planet. I just like gadgets and there's something about being self sufficient.

The State of California gives huge kick backs for alternative energy and in most cases, people get a return on investment in about 12 months, sometimes less if you have over supply and sell it back to the grid. I wish our Government was this forward thinking.

[Ocean1]

The State of California gives huge kick backs for alternative energy and in most cases, people get a return on investment in about 12 months, sometimes less if you have over supply and sell it back to the grid. I wish our Government was this forward thinking.

They could start by requiring supply companies to buy-back up to 25% of a residential client's supply at full retail price. They actually spent a fair amount to install metres that won't work backwards exactly to avoid smart bastards like you pumping extrenal supply peak surplus back into the grid.

[Wolf]

Petrol powered power plant right next to the refinery - can supply electricity to the grid and also to the refinery to offset the electrical costs of refining it.

One fucking great finely-tuned engine (or a battery of engines) running constantly at optimum output to drive a fixed-load generator would be a lot more efficient than transporting petrol around the countryside in diesel-powered trucks and then burning it in a large number of variably tuned engines at varying outputs under varying loads.

The electricity pumped into the grid could then power electric vehicles - personal and public transport.

Strict emission management of the power plant (and more efficient burning of the fuel) would be an improvement over the emissions from all the aforementioned smaller engines.

Crude oil will still eventually run out but it will run out slower if used efficiently than it would the way it is being used at present.

Lots of things can be combusted and used to power generators - biofuels, diesel, oils, methane - some of which (like methane or ethanol produced from whey) are waste products and could be pressed into service to fuel power stations.

Oh Noes! Burning things, CO2-monster etc. CO2 is less of a "greenhouse gas" than methane. Burn nasty methane (sewerage treatment plants could become power stations), make less-nasty CO2, pass it through some serious scrubbers to render CO2 inert (an exhaust system that would bring a car to an abrupt halt from sheer weight).

Electric train systems (main trunk line, Wellington's "Unit"), electric trams (Wellington), and some of the new generation high-performance electric cars fitted with the latest and greatest batteries.

[Finn]

They actually spent a fair amount to install metres that won't work backwards exactly to avoid smart bastards like you pumping extrenal supply peak surplus back into the grid.

Didn't realise that. Bastards! So when I've got my full solar / turbine system with generator back up, they can have the bloody thing back. I'll even post it to them.

You seem very clued up on this stuff. Do you work in the industry?

[SpankMe]

More research money to find magnetic monopoles, or just chuck on nuclear power station on Stewart Island with a cable running directly to Auckland.

[Bass]

It's not my idea dude, I stole it from... can't remember, Larry Niven?

And yes, the quantity of energy represented by geothermal sources is not limitless, but it's fucking near so.

The superconductor technology to do that isn't far away, and that's not an idle guess, if we fail to bake ourselves to a crisp within the next 20 years then superconductors capable of living in those temperatures will almost certainly be viable. The rest is old technology.

Think a little bigger. Marry that technology with balanced-orbit towers anchored near the equator and you get a generator. Not sure of output potential, I can't find clean data. It's not nescessarily a viable stand-alone energy project, but it is a cheap by-product of the almost-free inter-solar space flight the tower provides.

Oh, and I stole that one too.

Yep, I realised all that.
You brought it to this forum though.
Science fiction has brought us some valuable stuff over the years - from nuclear subs (Jules Verne) to geostationary satellites (Arthur C Clarke as I recall) and it still continues.
The orbital towers don't make inter solar flight almost free but.
They get the atmosphere out of the equation, which surely reduces the cost big time. You still have the planet's gravity well to contend with.
However, with low orbit speeds circa 18,000 mph (pardon the units) and escape velocity at 24,000, the last 6000 is a whole heap easier to deal with than the first.
There are some serious physical issues with the towers but I can't remember exactly what. I think it has to do with the coriolis forces on an elevator ascending and descending. I THINK that when you calculate them they are high enough to require tower stiffening that is right on the edge of our materials technology.

[Ocean1]

Didn't realise that. Bastards! So when I've got my full solar / turbine system with generator back up, they can have the bloody thing back. I'll even post it to them.

You seem very clued up on this stuff. Do you work in the industry?

No. And I may be wrong, yours may well run arsy boo. Try it, turn everything off in the house and hook up a clean 230V supply to it, (NOT and extension cord from next door though eh?) the liddle wheels should go backwards.

Even if it works and they catch you they'll cause grief, they legally don't have to buy power from you. They wouldn't want the possible bad press from a simple refusal, but there'll be safety and systems compatibility concerns under duscussion, which is where industry regulation fits in...

[ManDownUnder]

I wish our Government was this forward thinking.

Ditto, but to be forward thinking it must first be thinking.... and they seem a bloody long way from that at times.

Buying votes is a good way to stay in power but a piss poor way of managing anything. Decisions made on the basis of the uneducated masses wanting the outcome/handout/promised BS nirvana.

edit: As a first step I quote like the idea of a switching supply so insensitive loads can cut from mains to solar/wind/locally generated power when it's available with enough ergs. Heating load seems a good place to start - Hot Water and the like.