Uni of Life v Uni Degree?

[ManDownUnder]

The world has an oversupply of idiots, educated or not!

I have a healthy "respect" for intelligent qualified competent people.

Respect can only be "earned" not demanded. (IMHumbleO) John

AMEN!

I came out of Uni with a guy whose mind s like a steel trap. He can quote chapter and verse on shitloads of stuff... but the chip that settled on his shoulder the cap he got his degree was stunning.

The world owed him a living and he wanted to go into partnership with me. I asked him a simple question - "If the shop needed sweeping would you do it?".

He was stunned - kinda stopped and thought about it... and said no - he's going to have someone working for him that does that stuff.

1) He had to stop and think about it???
2) He said no????

errr.... *ding* next.

He didn't succeed in the following 10 years, so he went into something "easy". Building houses. I mean hell - how hard is it to swing a hammer? Business went tits up, because of (or triggering) a few funny finger fiddle problems involving the accounts and payments thereof... I mean - he was smart - he knew how to get away with it.

I'm not sure which prison he's currently in, but I'll bet his education continues.

[Stirts]

I work at a University....not as an Academic! And I don't have a degree!

I believe there are many types of "intelligence" not restricted to holding a degree/qualification or "real world" experience!

Intelligence is relative to one person, what you and I, perceive as stoopid may contradict each other, or vary in degrees.

And what about creativity, abstract logic, common sense, or other similar traits, is that not a form of intelligence?.....can I go to Uni to get a degree in common sense? does that make me stoopid cos I cants?

We need stoopid people in the world too! Welcome to my world!

[Edbear]

No Mr Smarty pants I did not! My "education" is not relevant to this discussion however. How about you explain your definition of an educated person. Mine will follow never fear.



Those Student Loans are a bitch for sure. I am not knocking a Degree, we need Doctors and Dentists and God forbid, Lawyers and the like.......my problem is with the customer service people with Degrees and huge debt!

no it doesn't.. it means you can read, digest and regurgitate.. nothing more nothing less.

here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education for example. no one will win this debate.. it's all based on your own beliefs and experiences.

and as far as im concerned.. i'm gonna LEARN you ALL!

I have a degree (somewhere buried in my office at home..... somewhere.... old undies.. no.... someone's bra...hmmm.... ah here tis.... "Bachelor of Commerce").

My degree taught me two thirds of bugger all... yes I learned marketing and management theory, but the real learning is always when you start on the job. My current role as a commercial banking dude (3 years total) is truly hands on and is a role where the young bright sparks struggle with clients who are old enough to be their parents.

It was the same when I was a policeman (also 3 years on duty). 6 months at college and all the young recruits looked at me and said they were ready to take on anyone and could do anything.... (I was 31 at the time and they called me granddad!! ha!). Funnily enough once they got out there doing the practical stuff, that is when life experience really came to the fore. Domestics, trauma, suicides etc with people again old enough to be their parents.

After qualifications, pure experience and maturity go a long way.

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices.
Laurence J. Peter (1919 - 1988)

Bachelor's degrees make pretty good placemats if you get 'em laminated.
J. Jacques,

America believes in education: the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week. Evan Esar (1899 - 1995)

It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. Alec Bourne

Of course it makes a person more educated. However, and depending on the area of study, unless one has some experience in the real world one may not know how to apply the knowledge obtained from that education.
I've just started a degree to qualify myself for the position I've held for the last 6 years. There was no real need to, I'm very good at what I do, but fuck me if I haven't discovered I actually didn't know it all.
I reckon there's no harm in trying to better one's self given the opportunity to do so.

Educated? Not necessarily.
Respected? Maybe. But respect comes from what sort of person you are, and how you live your life / conduct yorself.
Employable? Definitely. Despite the low unemployment rate, there is still a lot of competition for jobs, and employers will do their initial screening for skills-based positions by chucking out those with the lowest level of qualification and experience.


No. Having a degree is not necessarily any indication of what sort of person you are, or your worth as a person/employee.

My #2 son left school at 16, with no qualifications at all. Is he stupid?
No.
The 'education system' largely failed him, as he was somewhat of a "square peg in a round hole". He is also amongst the smartest 1% of the population.
He now works as Systems Manager at an electronics company.

OTOH, I spent nearly 6 years at university. I have never used my 'qualifications', although they did help me to get jobs, as they indicated I wasn't dumb, so I didn't have to prove it. In hindsight, my degree was a waste of time and money.

In my last job, we used to get over 400 applications for programming jobs. It was too many to vet, so they were ranked by qualification/experience, and most applications went straight in the "Reject" pile. The company ended up with employees that were often 'overqualified' for the positions, so there was a high turnover. They accepted that, as long as they kept their core of experienced people.

The biggest problem with the education system is that it fails in some very basic areas: it doesn't teach students how to think, and it doesn't teach them how to find relevant information and critically analyse it. So you end up with people who have degrees yet can't think for themselves or train themselves or find out what they need to know. My two oldest boys are autodidactic: they teach themselves, and are constantly finding things out and learning stuff. This is partly because they had a few years of home-schooling, and partly just their personalities. #2 taught himself programming (he is proficient in several programming languages), electronics (he has assembled a 300W amp, designed and made himself a pre-amp and several other things, learned to play piano and guitar (and then took some lessons), and is now teaching himself guitar. He is also learning (off his own bat, using downloaded materials from the interdweeb) Japanese, Mandarin, German and Spanish.
#1 son is studying pharmacy at university, but has such a natural curiosity that he reads up to 12 books a week (he speed-reads in chunks) including non-fiction ones on archaeology, ship-building, map-making, firearms, etc etc. He has appalling handwriting and co-ordination (brain goes way too fast for his hand) yet taught himself calligraphy and can do beautiful copperplate writing. He also paints, builds models (and paints them), creates maps, and the little free time he has is always very busy.
#3 son went right through the school system, and is currently in year 13. He is a blob. He's not dumb, but he's very one-dimensional. He'll eventually either be perpetually unemployed, or do tertiary studies and be a drone in an office somewhere.

I have always thought life expereince is so much more important... it brings wisdom and "street smarts" that you can't learn in a book - however here I am at the age of 35 planning to study next year... so I think my stance has changed... I feel a good combination of both will set me on strong road towards my goals.

Now all I have to do is hope I can still study as I have not done anything close to it since I was 17.

Up, up and away....

PS - Im gonna vote for you to go back knitting as you did not give us the option for a combination of life and study

I must say that I'd like to think that having spent 5.5 years doing a Master of Science in Engineering Physics would make me more qualified for certain positions than someone who had not done something comparable.

I certainly feel that I'm in a much better position to obtain new knowledge in a number of fields (from economics to quantum physics) now compared to when I left highschool.
I didn't get an A+ GPA since I was too busy living life while doing "alright" at my course work. I did pull my shit together when I did my final thesis and pulled a nice A+ out of the hat since I wanted to do my best for once. I spent more time than most of my classmates partying, doing silly stuff and going on adventures - and while this didn't help my grades I certainly found it more fulfilling.

Does my time at university make me:

A) A better person than someone who does not hold a degree?
B) More intelligent than I was before I went to uni?
C) An arrogant cunt - and a nerd to boot?
D) More educated?

I'd say D - maybe a bit of B (compared to if I'd been speding 5.5 years on the dole smoking weed and getting drunk - as it is I spent 5.5 years on a student allowance smoking weed and getting drunk, but at least I was stimulated! ).

I don't think hauling your ass to uni to do half a year of disconnected arts degrees will necessarily make you more educated. Still it might, depending on your attitude.
If you have two almost identical persons, the only difference being that A can engage in a lengthy insightful discussion on the differences in the philosophies of Plato and Aristotle whereas B can not - A would per definition be more educated than B, but it's not something that'll give A an edge over B in 99.9% of all circumstances.

In the end - does it matter? Degree or no degree, if you start talking out your ass there'll always be someone out there who will pick you up on your bullshit - either through education or experience... neither is a substitue for the other.

Sums it all up perfectly!

My wife has just achieved her 2nd year certificate of a 3 year Diploma and we're both pretty chuffed about it as she completely failed at school and at her age she feels she has achieved something and we're looking forward to her completing the Diploma by mid next year!

I'd love to go to Uni and get a Diploma in Radiology, but can't afford to though I'd like to work in that field.

Learning a trade can be valuable. I think I'm fairly well educated with a few clues up top, but I have enormous respect for some friends who have little formal education at all!

[bomma]

just my 2 rupees but i think the question has been blown outta proportion.....

the question is "does having a degree mean you are more educated"??

simple and plain answer is yes, it sure does....gives you a qualification, whether it's worth something or not is beside the point...as is whether it makes you smarter or mor intelligent or any of that crap......when i said that i was more educated coz i go to uni i simply meant that i have continued with my studying/schooling beyond what the other fulla had....

personally i think university degrees are over-rated and the fact remains that the two biggest reasons most kids pursue a tertiary education these days are that:

1. that little piece of paper opens up a whole new door of opportunities, career-wise.....no glass ceiling

2. these days society basically dictates that to "get anywhere in life" i need to go to uni and get a degree.....

might just be me but that's the way ive been taught to think by my parents, teachers and every other member of society that has played any sort of role in my upbringing......

[oldrider]

just my 2 rupees but i think the question has been blown outta proportion.....

the question is "does having a degree mean you are more educated"??

simple and plain answer is yes, it sure does....gives you a qualification, whether it's worth something or not is beside the point...as is whether it makes you smarter or mor intelligent or any of that crap......when i said that i was more educated coz i go to uni i simply meant that i have continued with my studying/schooling beyond what the other fulla had....

personally i think university degrees are over-rated and the fact remains that the two biggest reasons most kids pursue a tertiary education these days are that:

1. that little piece of paper opens up a whole new door of opportunities, career-wise.....no glass ceiling

2. these days society basically dictates that to "get anywhere in life" i need to go to uni and get a degree.....

might just be me but that's the way ive been taught to think by my parents, teachers and every other member of society that has played any sort of role in my upbringing......

Knowledge is power, definitely so when adversaries and competitor's don't have as much as you!

Doesn't necessarily define any degree of intelligence though, does it?

The question was reasonable, in my opinion, anything that makes you question your thinking is reasonable! Cheers John.

[xwhatsit]

Universities make you more educated.

`University of Life' (O how I hate that phrase) makes you more educated.

An apprenticeship in a trade makes you more educated.

All in different things, though. All slightly mixed, with a pinch of each of the others, but they're three different directions, and I don't think any are better than the others -- only some people are more suited to certain directions.

My university degree has a pinch of `uni of life' about it, just a pinch; learning to balance money and time and part-time jobs with study, getting through interviews and dealing with dodgy/abusive employers, etc. It's also got a tiny pinch of trade/apprenticeship with a course I will be taking next semester -- go out and work on a real project with a real company, exposing me to the practical side of things.

I imagine the other two directions mentioned above also share similar aspects.

So if you want a Bachelor of Common Sense, you're probably better off sticking to the Uni of Life, or maybe a trade.

If you want to be a skilled diesel mechanic, then an apprenticeship is better than getting a bit of knowledge here and there from six different jobs, or learning the physical properties of hydrocarbons and aluminium from the Engineering department at Uni.

If you want to design the next RISC processor architecture to take over from Intel's CISC x86 design, you're probably best off going to a university and learning from the professors who just published a paper in the Journal of Symbolic Computation on new pipelining constructs.

I don't see that any particular method gives you more of an education than the others -- you just have to know what you want an education in.

[Suney]

Only because they often challenge the other students' world views and maybe want to get on with the assignment now, when they have time, rather than leaving it to the last moment or asking for an extension from the lecturer!

What are you trying to say here...

[Beemer]

I think the main point of a university education is not to show how clever you are but to show you have the ability to learn and gain new skills. One employer told me if he had a choice of a university graduate and someone without a degree, he'd usually go for the graduate because the fact they had studied and passed a degree course showed they could apply themselves to the job at hand. But having said that, it doesn't make them any better as an employee. I suppose it's that first impression stuff - like turning up to an interview dressed smartly as opposed to turning up in scruffy jeans and a torn teeshirt.

And if you need to get training or qualifications in order to do a particular job then you have no choice but to get a university degree if that is the career path you want.

[slowpoke]

Fookin' hell you lot can talk! Jaysus my eyes are hurtin' after tryin' to work my way through this lot......so I skipped to the end half way through.....kinda shows how much I'm willing to apply myself, eh?

Anyway the difficulty with the whole "university of life" education is how the hell do you assess it? How do you quantify it? How do you prove how well you've done? Who were you competing against? How much of it is relevant to the position you are applying for? What exactly did you study/do?
A tertiary qualification directly answers most of these questions.

Ultimately a manager could be asked to justify "Why did you employ this person? What are their qualifications?" and personal experiences told by word of mouth or without third party verification just do not cut it compared to a standardised qualification where you have been academically measured against known criteria. When the shit hits the fan the manager can't just say "Well, he/she said ..."

I actually wish I'd done a certain degree, 'cos I hate my frikkin' job, but the irony is I probably wouldn't get paid as much as I do now if I had....

Still, there are a million opportunities with unlimited possibilities out there for people who haven't got degrees, the proof whether you've passed the "university of life" is simple: can you spot one them?

[Nasty]

I have mulled this over and taken time to read the majority of posts ... and find this thread quite interesting. Anyway ... one of the things to realise is that once you reach a point in life ... they don't really care about degrees and qualifications that you earnt when you were 18 they want to know what you have done. Yes the degree helps in proving you can stick to something, that you can probably analyse data etc and that you can repeat back what you are told .. but its what you do with it after. I have a professional certification rather than a degree ... it required me to work in my profession for a few years before sitting in ... to prove education during that time e.g. courses and stuff ... and to maintain it I have to do continuing education ... far more valuable to an employer than a degree I may have done 20 years ago.

[James Deuce]

The older I get the more a lack of a degree affects my "career". I've hit a glass ceiling and won't be going any further in my "career" until this issue is addressed.

I think the older I get the less I am worth to my employer or a prospective employer. IT companies LOATHE old people.

[Ms Piggy]

Does a University Degree make you more educated/more respected/more employable, in todays world? If you dont hold a degree, does that make you dumb, and stupid and your opinions count for nothing.

Here's my 2 cents worth (having literally just finished my degree).

Intelligence is the key and it makes no difference if you have a university degree or not!

Yep going to Uni & getting a degree does make you more educated but not necessarily more intelligent. Yep it can make you more respected by people that it may matter to and depending on your degree it can make you more employable.

Not holding a degree definitely doesn't make you stupid or detract from the validity of opinions because, I believe the "university of life" is also valid and some people that have a university degree are the least intelligent people.

[KATWYN]

Define education for me then.

I have it as a noun, that means "the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding"

Surely this happens in other places and at other times than during the course of Uni Degree?

According to some opinions in here, "more educated" has been defined as someone who has a degree or other qualification (i.e., if one has a recognised qualification they are more educated but not necessarily more intelligent ), in these opinions the dictionary definition hasn't come into the debate.

According to the dictionary definition the process of aquiring knowledge and understanding in whatever area of life you excel, can also make you more educated than others.....although this view doesn't appear to get much of a look in when discussing education

So where is the benchmark?? More educated than who? Perhaps our own position is the only benchmark to compare.

[Mom]

According to some opinions in here, "more educated" has been defined as someone who has a degree or other qualification (i.e., if one has a recognised qualification they are more educated but not necessarily more intelligent ), in these opinions the dictionary definition hasn't come into the debate.

According to the dictionary definition the process of aquiring knowledge and understanding in whatever area of life you excel, can also make you more educated than others.....although this view doesn't appear to get much of a look in when discussing education

So where is the benchmark?? More educated than who?

Interesting that this is still around. I happen to agree with you. I believe that becoming educated is a life long journey, certainly a university degree can be part of your education, but does not start and stop with one IMHO.

This thread came about because there was some off topic discussion in another thread that I thought needed to be seperate. The premise that was mooted in that thread was that a university degree made someone more educated than someone without. I disagree. This is nothing to do with intelligence, though of course becoming educated suggests that you must be at least be a little intelligent.

[Thomas]

The more you learn, the more you want to learn, but whether that is by studying at uni or not is another matter. I think the important thing is to keep you brain active and be open to learning new things whether it's in a structured way or on the job.

My wife retrained in her 30s (not that old) and then gained new skills in her 40s. It now means she can have a wider choice of jobs than before. You could say that's clever!