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Thread: Global Warming - us, or <sinister background music> something else?

  1. #16
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    *ahem*

    Earth is living moments of warming and cooling by cycles since it exists. If I remember well, it happen about every 15000-30000 years (but im really not sure was a while ago when i learnt it). It is normal to have periods of warming and other of cooling, as glaciation periods etc.
    However, the action of humans is visible in the sense that we accelerate the speed of the period of warming we are living.
    And this except, having a hole in the ozone layer is the only and alone action of humans. And this is resulting in lot of bad consequences "en cascade" (dunno whats the english word :P)

    I think as well that Al Gore is certainly not the most qualified to talk about these things, but he had the advantage to have moved politics' arses and open eyes to some people about caring of environment (in general). And coming from Paris, I appreciate the fresh and pur air of New Zealand and hate your fucking bad sun too

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xile View Post
    And this except, having a hole in the ozone layer is the only and alone action of humans. And this is resulting in lot of bad consequences "en cascade" (dunno whats the english word :P)
    That's a big stinky lie, if you'll pardon the language.

    How do you make O3? You ionise O2. What do you need to ionise something? Electromagnetism.

    Sol's normal period of Sunspot activity is an 11 year cycle, observed and reliably documented since Galileo, Brahe, and Copernicus turned their hairy medieval eyes to the heavens.

    We missed two cycles from the late 60s through to the early 90, conveniently while we bunged comms satellites in LOE. Anyone remember the drama a couple of years ago when the bSykb satellite network went boom when that Sunspot cycle reasserted itself and a nice big solar storm took it out as well as a number of relay satellites? No?

    To make ozone in the upper atmosphere you need regular solar flares to ionise O2 into O3. It has long been recognised that the cfc thing was a myth, that that particular molecule was too big to rise through the atmosphere to the ozone layer and maintain its chemical bonds.

    Guess what? After a couple of years of decent solar activity the ozone hole is starting shrink. It's the smallest it's been for a decade this year.

    People's focus on Earth as a standalone system is blinding them to external stimuli our atmosphere is under. Our issues aren't just generated on Earth by us.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
    There was a post on here awhile back that had a link to a documentary called The Great Global Warming Swindle.

    The link dont seem to be working anymore. But if you get the chance I recommend you view it. I wish it was as well known as an inconvenient truth, at least its made by Scientists.
    Yes, interesting that it's vanished from various video sites, yet "an inconvenient truth" is everywhere. Still, try this: http://en.sevenload.com/videos/ha4Po...arming-Swindle

    And some wurds about the documentary: http://www.greatglobalwarmingswindle.com/
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  4. #19
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    Another link that points out the flaws in Gore's film (can't call it a documentary, 'coz those are usually factual)
    http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaunder/

  5. #20
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    I think the greatest environmental threat we face is dihydrogen monoxide. Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there.

    Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



  6. #21
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    Hah. Al Gore's film is just a way of giving his political career a boost (bloody successful too eh?). Perhaps in future we'll have rock stars making documentaries to boost their careers rather than playing those charity gigs...oi! Bono! Noooo!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lobster View Post
    Only a homo puts an engine back together WITHOUT making it go faster.

  7. #22
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    I have never seen such a load of willfully ignorant rubbish in one place. It's all a conspiracy, the scientists are making big bucks off global warming alarmism, Al Gore is fat, whatever. It's not the fact that people don't know that bothers me, it's that they want not to know.

    The Global Warming Swindle *was* a swindle. The producers falsified graphs because the the real data didn't fit what they wanted to show. The sun does affect climate (obviously), but it doesn't explain the warming of the last 30 years.

    Re the first post, Bill Gray (who I studied under at Colorado State University in the 1980s) is talking just about the hurricane-climate change link. The science there is unsettled. The basic science behind greenhouse gases and anthropogenic global warming is not.

    I've heard them all: there's global warming on Mars; the satellites don't show warming; CO2 is an effect not a cause; it's been cooling since 1998. Rubbish.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    Where's the option for "it is another method for the UN to tax the crap out of everyone and make vast amounts of profit for themselves"?
    Power games.
    "Scary monster" - "We'll save you - give us money and power to fix it".
    I'm telling you... ManBearPig is real... I'm super duper sereal! Unless you support me, he's gonna get you, he's gonna get all of us!
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston001 View Post
    Oh goody, the old conspiracy theory once again. Yep, there is a cabal of wealthy secretive men ....
    How will we know if (when?) the ShadowMen knock on your door? We need to be able to protect ourselves. Should we all head for the Ureweras while we still can?
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  10. #25
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    It doesn't matter what we think. 'They' have decided "global climate change" (they've changed the name so they can hedge their bets) is a reality, and so now everything's geared towards carbon credits, electric cars, biofuels, solar panels, and a whole bunch of other nonsense.

    Personally (not that it matters), I think that based on my own research, and 6 years of Earth Sciences at university (including paleoclimatology), "global climate change" is a bit of a beat-up and bandwagon, and it's rather arrogant to think we can have much of an impact on weather patterns, given the largely poorly understood weather mechanisms, the short period of accurate data gathering, and the effect of 'natural' mechanisms that far outweigh those due to human activity. However, I do agree that activities like merrily burning fossil fuels, deforestation etc are not good, and anything that acts as a catalyst to change this is good. But not if it's silly.
    F'rinstance: the Greenies love solar panels. Solar panels are EXTREMELY inefficient, and take something like nine times the amount of energy to manufacture as they produce in their lifetime. Useful yes (in some circumstances), but ultimately very silly.
    Biofuels? Good, if the sums add up. Pointless and silly if they lead to people starving or more energy being used in their production than digging some dinosaur spooge out of the ground.
    The dumbest thing is our Gummint falling over backwards to appear green, when we have an appalling record of pollution and waste, are hopeless at recycling, and countries like Japan, the US and China are busily devouring fossil fuels and polluting at such an enormous rate that us fucking up the economy to be good is pointless, idiotic and hypocritical.
    ... and that's what I think.

    Or summat.


    Or maybe not...

    Dunno really....


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manxman View Post
    In summary, if you haven't go time to read this story in full:
    1) global warming is happening;
    2) it's cyclical....not human.

    Feck, imagine what the greenies will say when we slip into the next cooling cycle?
    They will undoubtedly credit their green ways for that and will herald themselves as saviors of humankind. On the other hand, now that I am thinking about it, their activism is actually beneficial since it will preserve more fossil fuels for the global cooling time when it will actually make a difference.
    "People are stupid ... almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true ... they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so all are easier to fool." -- Wizard's First Rule

  12. #27
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    This blog post and the resulting discussion has some good stuff:

    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/10/16/many-factors/

    I especially like this comment:
    So let’s see. We have two potential explanations for modern
    climate change: greenhouse gases or increasing solar irradiance.
    Simple physics tells us that either one would produce a warming
    effect. We know with very high confidence that GHGs are in fact
    increasing, but that for several decades at least, TSI [total solar irradiance] isn’t.

    As if that weren’t enough, the observed changes — greatest warming
    in winter, at night, and at high latitudes, accompanied by cooling
    of the stratosphere — is *exactly* what would be predicted by GHGs
    and *exactly the opposite* of what would be predicted by solar.

    A lot of the noise from the “skeptic” side seems to focus on
    haggling over minutiae while studiously avoiding the simple and
    obvious.
    and this one
    Bottom line, if something other than GHGs just happens to be
    causing a pattern of warming that exactly mimics what we’d expect
    from GHGs (warmer at night, at high latitudes, and in the winter;
    colder in the stratosphere) … then you also need to explain how
    GHGs mysteriously *aren’t* providing the radiative forcing that
    simple physics says they should.

  13. #28
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    The only "simple" thing seems to be the posters Mark.
    How about this (Vincent Gray is an expert reviewer for the UN Panel on Climate Change):

    I have been an "Expert Reviewer" for the IPCC right from the start and I have submitted a very large number of comments on their drafts. It has recently been revealed that I submitted 1,898 comments on the Final Draft of the current Report. Over the period I have made an intensive study of the data and procedures used by IPCC contributors throughout their whole study range. I have a large library of reprints, books and comments and have published many comments of my own in published papers, a book, and in my occasional newsletter the current number being 157.

    I began with a belief in scientific ethics. that scientists would answer queries honestly, that scientific argument would take place purely on the basis of facts, logic and established scientific and mathematical principles.

    Right from the beginning I have had difficulty with this procedure. Penetrating questions often ended without any answer. Comments on the IPCC drafts were rejected without explanation, and attempts to pursue the matter were frustrated indefinitely.

    Over the years, as I have learned more about the data and procedures of the IPCC I have found increasing opposition by them to providing explanations, until I have been forced to the conclusion that for significant parts of the work of the IPCC, the data collection and scientific methods employed are unsound. Resistance to all efforts to try and discuss or rectify these problems has convinced me that normal scientific procedures are not only rejected by the IPCC, but that this practice is endemic. and was part of the organisation from the very beginning. I therefore consider that the IPCC is fundamentally corrupt. The only "reform" I could envisage, would be its abolition.

    I wonder whether I could summarize briefly some of the reasons why the scientific procedures followed by the IPCC are fundamentally unsound. Some of you may have received more detail if you received my recent NZClimate Truth Newsletters.

    The two main "scientific" claims of the IPCC are the claim that "the globe is warming": and "Increases in carbon dioxide emissions are responsible". Evidence for both of these claims is fatally flawed..

    To start with the "global warming" claim. It is based on a graph showing that "mean annual global temperature" has been increasing.

    This claim fails from two fundamental facts

    1. No average temperature of any part of the earth's surface, over any period, has ever been made.

    How can you derive a "global average" when you do not even have a single "local" average?

    What they actually use is the procedure used from 1850, which is to make one measurement a day at the weather station from a maximum/minimum thermometer. The mean of these two is taken to be the average. No statistician could agree that a plausible average can be obtained this way. The potential bias is more than the claimed "global warming.

    2. The sample is grossly unrepresentative of the earth's surface, mostly near to towns. No statistician could accept an "average" based on such a poor sample. It cannot possibly be "corrected"

    It is of interest that frantic efforts to "correct" for these uncorrectable errors have produced mean temperature records for the USA and China which show no overall "warming" at all. If they were able to "correct" the rest, the same result is likely

    And, then after all, there has been no "global warming", however measured, for eight years, and this year is all set to be cooling. As a result it is now politically incorrect to speak of "global warming". The buzzword is "Climate Change" which is still blamed on the non-existent "warming"

    The other flagship set of data promoted by the IPCC are the figures showing the increase in atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide. They have manipulated the data in such a way to persuade us (including most scientists) that this concentration is constant throughout the atmosphere. In order to do this they refrain from publishing any results which they do not like, and they have suppressed no less than 90,000 measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide made in the last 150 years. Some of these were made by Nobel Prizewinners and all were published in the best scientific Journals. Ernst Beck has actually published on the net all the actual papers.

    Why did they do it? It is very subtle, brush up your maths. In order to calculate the radiative effects of carbon dioxide you have to use a formula involving a logarithm. When such a formula is applied to a set of figures the low figures have a greater weight in the final average radiation.The figure obtained from the so-called "background figure" is therefore biased in an upwards direction.

    My main complaint with the IPCC is in the methods used to "evaluate" computer models. Proper "validation" of models should involve proved evidence that they are capable of future prediction within the range required, and to a satisfactory level of accuracy. Without this procedure no self-respecting computer engineer would dare to make use of a model for prediction.

    No computer climate model has ever been tested in this way, so none should be used for prediction. They sort of accept this by never permitting the use of the term "prediction", only "projection". But they then go ahead predicting anyway.

    There is a basic logical principle that a correlation, however convincing, is not proof of causation. Most scientists pay at least lip service to this principle, but its widespread lack of acceptance by the general public have led to IPCC to explore it as one of their methods of ":evaluating" models.

    The models are so full of inaccurately known parameters and equations that it is comparatively easy to "fudge" an approximate fit to the few climate sequences that might respond. This sort of evidence is the main feature of most of the current promotional lectures.

    The most elaborate of all their "evaluation" techniques is far more dubious. Since they have failed to show that any models are actually capable of prediction, they have decided to "evaluate" them by asking the opinions of those who originate them, people with a financial interest in their success. This has become so complex that many have failed to notice that it has no scientific basis, but is just an assembly of the "gut feelings" of self-styled "experts". It has been developed to a comples web of "likelihoods", all of which are assigned fake "probability" levels.

    By drawing attention to these obvious facts I have now found myself persona non grata with most of my local professional associations, Surely, I am questioning the integrity of these award-winning scientific leaders of the local science establishment. When you get down to it, that is what is involved.

    I somehow understood that the threshold had been passed when I viewed "The Great Global Warming Swindle". Yes, we have to face it. The whole process is a swindle, The IPCC from the beginning was given the license to use whatever methods would be necessary to provide "evidence" that carbon dioxide increases are harming the climate, even if this involves manipulation of dubious data and using peoples' opinions instead of science to "prove" their case.

    The disappearance of the IPCC in disgrace is not only desirable but inevitable. The reason is, that the world will slowly realise that the "predictions" emanating from the IPCC will not happen. The absence of any "global warming" for the past eight years is just the beginning. Sooner or later all of us will come to realise that this organisation, and the thinking behind it, is phony. Unfortunately severe economic damage is likely to be done by its influence before that happens.

  14. #29
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    Some one has to be wrong. I'm not a scientist so i dont have the answer. What i do know is that we have two options. If we treat it as real and it turns out to be wrong then we've wasted a lot of time and money. If we get the other option wrong then we are stuffed.

    There are also plenty (if not more) experts who say it is real, so why do you chose to believe the ones that say it isn't. Do you have enough expert knowledge yourself to refute the other point of view yourself or are you relying on your chosen experts to provide you their version of the truth?

    What thought process do people use to come to the conclusion that one "expert" is right and another is wrong? The stakes are high - is your reasoning sound enough to bet all our chips?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usarka View Post
    Some one has to be wrong. I'm not a scientist so i dont have the answer. What i do know is that we have two options. If we treat it as real and it turns out to be wrong then we've wasted a lot of time and money. If we get the other option wrong then we are stuffed.

    There are also plenty (if not more) experts who say it is real, so why do you chose to believe the ones that say it isn't. Do you have enough expert knowledge yourself to refute the other point of view yourself or are you relying on your chosen experts to provide you their version of the truth?

    What thought process do people use to come to the conclusion that one "expert" is right and another is wrong? The stakes are high - is your reasoning sound enough to bet all our chips?
    A lesson in correlation and causality

    Tags: peter cochrane, climate change

    By Peter Cochrane

    Published: Thursday 26 July 2007

    For the last week my wife and I have been living in and working from a 22-story hotel in Barcelona. Our room was on the sixteenth floor and getting an elevator always seemed to be a big deal. We always seemed to be in a hurry and had to wait a long time for a car to arrive, and then it would stop at four or five floors on the way up or down.

    After about three days this became really frustrating and I have no idea why but my wife started holding down the door-close button.

    Bingo! On every trip we always went from floor sixteen to the ground floor, or from the ground floor to sixteen non-stop.

    I couldn't see any reason why this should be a purposely engineered facility as it would defy all queuing theory design, not to mention service-time targets and fairness objectives applied in these cases.

    Belief systems are more powerful than truth and always lead to long-sustained ignorance and waste.
    But in the selfish interest of getting to our destination floors fast, we persisted. It worked without fail!

    Had we stumbled on something strange but useful, or was it a succession of chance occurrences? Basic statistical analysis said this phenomenon was rapidly approaching as close to certainty as it needed to convince me it did indeed work.

    At this point it would have been very easy to believe but the scientist in me kept waiting for a failure to disprove this growing evidence base.

    Sure enough - on the sixth day it happened! We boarded on the sixteenth floor, and the car stopped for a call on the fourteenth. So was it a fluke? Did we fail to press the 'door close' button quickly enough? We soon found out. Over the next two days the failures came thick and fast in both the up and down directions, at all times of the day and our belief rapidly dissipated.

    So how did we enjoy such a long run of success? Hotel occupancy seems to have been the culprit. There had been a dip in the number of residents that led to a smaller demand for cars. And of course, elevator systems, like so many transport systems, fail catastrophically. That is, they go from a satisfactory service level to a perceived failed state (ie irritatingly slow) in a matter of a few extra customers.

    The moral of this experience is of course that correlation does not automatically infer causality. As a student one of the most important things I was taught was to always try and prove things theoretically and practically from many different directions, and always try and destroy the argument from even more. If the case survives this assault, then in all probability it is likely to be correct.

    One really nice, comical example of correlation and no causality popped onto my screen while I was looking at venganza.org the other day. Below you can see a graph from that site which shows the relationship between global average temperature and the number of pirates.

    (see below)

    If we believed the facts as presented we would start recruiting more pirates in order to stop global warming. But common sense tells us this is nonsense.

    Unfortunately there are many cases like this, where people want something to be true and then go on to build up a belief that is unshakable.

    Tragically in many cases no amount of scientific, engineering or mathematical proof will shake that belief. This leads to bad decisions and huge waste for society and spans every aspect of politics, healthcare, business, environment, technology and behaviour.

    A good case in question is the mobile phone headache syndrome.

    Hundreds of scientific studies and reports fail to find any positive evidence that mobiles cause health problems.

    And of course these err on the conservative side in providing qualified statements because reputations are at stake and we now live in a blame culture, which only affords an opportunity for a blitz of criticism from the believers.

    Just look at all the reporting and investigations for bias. It is clearly evident in the pro-problem direction and can be easily construed in the con-problem direction - and even more so if you want to believe. Right now I am definitely in a dense RF environment and have a bit of a thick head but that I think is more to do with a series of late nights and a lot of travelling!

    Is there anything we could do to help? I think not! Belief systems are more powerful than truth and always lead to long-sustained ignorance and waste. My prognosis for the mobile, and other similarly inflicted industries is that they are up against 'Flat Earthists' and the debate and waste will rumble on for decades.

    In the meantime the real problems in society that see thousands of deaths a year and a lot of suffering will continue to go unaddressed and neglected. To my mind that is the real tragedy. We only have a finite amount of time, money and skill - and it ought not to be wasted.
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    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

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