Understanding cornering on a bike.

[DEATH_INC.]

Not sure about that delayed apex though...

On the road, you should always do this. If you are having trouble doing it with braking distances etc, slow down. Late apexing gives a clear view of where ya going before you get there, it's by far the safest road cornering method out there. You don't rocket in and then try to square off the corner, basically stay wide until you can see the corner exit before you drop in....

[Mental Trousers]

This is basically correct, I think, but it does depend on the bike and its setup (particularly tyre profile and pressure) and how much power you apply. Some bikes, once turned in, will track neutrally without further input, some have to be "held down", some have to be "held up". To illustrate, try letting half the air out of your tyres, ride into a corner and then, once you're in the corner, take your hands off the bars.

As somebody else said, countersteering isn't that big a deal, it's something many (most) people do without thinking or knowing. However I think that analysing what you're doing and trying different approaches will make you a better rider.

mmmm that's not what Keith code says.
counter steering is the external unbalanced force that causes the bike to lean over ... the steering head is what causes the bike to go thru an arc, and counter steering to stand the bike back up again/

you should only be counter steering in a curve if you need to adjust your lean angle

Close.

Ideally, you'd counter steer at the turn in point of a corner and after that, you'd do as little as possible (the less you do the more grip is available - see Keith Code's analogy with the money)

The rake, trail and (to a lesser extent) wheelbase dictate how tight a corner a bike can take at a given speed. The steeper the rake and the smaller the trail and wheelbase, the tighter the corner a bike can get around without more steering input (ie counter steering or other).

Road bikes are full on compromises when it comes to geometry because of the nature of roads - there's a huge variety of conditions that the bike has to deal with. Race bikes are much more narrowly focused so they often end up with very steep rake and small amounts of trail. This has the effect that the bike can take a corner faster without having to lean on the inside bar to make it hold it's line.

Counter steering all the way through a corner isn't ideal.

As for late apexing, it's the safest line you can take on the road because it gives you the best field of vision around the corner. Riding safely is all about maximizing time and space - the more time and space you have at your disposal the safer you are.

[discotex]

Close.

Ideally, you'd counter steer at the turn in point of a corner and after that, you'd do as little as possible (the less you do the more grip is available - see Keith Code's analogy with the money)

+1

Once you've countersteered the bike over the only inputs required should be minimal. Moving your weight in or out or weighting a peg etc.

As for late apexing, it's the safest line you can take on the road because it gives you the best field of vision around the corner. Riding safely is all about maximizing time and space - the more time and space you have at your disposal the safer you are.

Absolutely. It also has the effect of minimising the time you are in the spot where a car or bike coming the other way will overshoot into your lane.

And, for the time that you are in that danger zone you are mostly upright and have room to manoeuvre or brake hard.

And, if that corner turns out to be a decreasing radius corner you won't be running wide as you'll have lean angle in reserve.

And, it sets you up nicely if the next corner goes the other way.

I still can't think of a single reason against late apexing either.

[Hoon]

I've read pretty much everything there is to read on the subject but I still struggle to apply it.
One area of my cornering I've been working on is the "quick flick turn in" which is related to late apexing as the quicker you can change direction the later you can turn in.
The problem with late apexing is it doesn't leave much room for error if you are going too fast. The only real option you have is to lean it over further.

Anyway the point I wanted to make is yep you counter steer the bike to lean it over. You can be pretty violent with the handle bars - examples are Puke turn 1-2 (right to left into castrol) and Turn 8-9? (left to right coming over the hill) which pretty much take all my strength.

High speed the bike will lean over then maintain its lean angle (or even slowly stand up) once you stop applying pressure but at lower speeds (say < 100kph at slow turns, hairpins etc) once you get past a certain lean angle (say 45 degrees, depending on your tyre profiles), the bike will continue to keep falling into the lean if you release pressure. Counter steering the opposite direction is one option but another is to catch it with the throttle and crack on the gas. This stops it falling and also accelerates you out of the turn but the more powerful the bike the smoother you need to be.

So in these slow-mid speed turns I actually like to turn in as fast as I can, then complete my lean action not with releasing handle pressure or counter steering the opposite direction, but by applying throttle.

This means that if I do misjudge my late apex turn, I have still maximised my chances of making the turn by turning in as quickly as possible. The only change I need to make is to allow the bike to lean further by cracking on the gas as the later point. This happens naturally during an "ohh shit!!" moment and that slight hesitation is actually exactly what is needed in this situation.

[99TLS]

Yes i go around left corners no sweat.but the rights get me a bit off balance

opposite to me hate downhill lefts ,always have for some reason?

[007XX]

On the road, you should always do this. If you are having trouble doing it with braking distances etc, slow down. Late apexing gives a clear view of where ya going before you get there, it's by far the safest road cornering method out there. You don't rocket in and then try to square off the corner, basically stay wide until you can see the corner exit before you drop in....

Most definitely...I have been consciously forcing myself to do this of late on the road, and I am happy to report it is becoming more and more natural. Also feels way safer.

[yungatart]

opposite to me hate downhill lefts ,always have for some reason?

Survival instinct? If you bin on a downhill left, you will be thrown into the opposing lane (DAMHIK).
Like you, I hate them, nasty little buggers, they is!

[Ocean1]

Counter steering the opposite direction is one option but another is to catch it with the throttle and crack on the gas. This stops it falling and also accelerates you out of the turn but the more powerful the bike the smoother you need to be.

So in these slow-mid speed turns I actually like to turn in as fast as I can, then complete my lean action not with releasing handle pressure or counter steering the opposite direction, but by applying throttle.

This means that if I do misjudge my late apex turn, I have still maximised my chances of making the turn by turning in as quickly as possible. The only change I need to make is to allow the bike to lean further by cracking on the gas as the later point. This happens naturally during an "ohh shit!!" moment and that slight hesitation is actually exactly what is needed in this situation.

I'd struggle to state it so clearly but that makes perfect sense to me. The Buell does like to continue to fall in once turned in, but if I've got the entry speed right I'm on the gas almost imediately after that. That balances the tendency to fall in, and, as you say if it's all a bit hot then delaying the throttle tends to tighten the curve, sort of self-correcting.

Mate Code also makes the point that bikes are designed to stick best under power, so the weight bias is moved backwards from a neutral 50/50 to 40/60. Certainly feels like that's the case, everything feels more stable and stickier when I roll onto the gas right through the turn. I feel I've got a corner "right" when there's zero counter-steering required after the initial turn-in, she just sits up progressively under increasing power right through the turn.

[autos]

this is fascinating, even though ive no idea what you are all talking about late apex, countersteering WTF?? so are the fundamentals all the same for sportsbikes and hogs or is that another can of worms ??

[sinned]

this is fascinating, even though ive no idea what you are all talking about late apex, countersteering WTF?? so are the fundamentals all the same for sportsbikes and hogs or is that another can of worms ??

Fundamentals are "fundamental" to all inline two wheelers including cycles except for the power thing - that is truly special.

[pritch]

Not sure about that delayed apex though...

Delayed apex has long been advocated for safety reasons:
A) You get a better look
B) A later turn in and apex means you can take a tighter line out thus making it less likely you will end up decorating the grill of a Mack Truck coming the other way.

[discotex]

this is fascinating, even though ive no idea what you are all talking about late apex, countersteering WTF?? so are the fundamentals all the same for sportsbikes and hogs or is that another can of worms ??

Yep for pedal power as well... Just not as noticable.

Quick and concise overview of late apexing

And the best vid that explains countersteering:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxM_GU7W-dE[/YOUTUBE]

[autos]

cheers for that, so much easier with pics, im doing late apex corners without knowing it lol

[Iain]

Very entertaining videos. I ended up watching them all

[90s]

And the best vid that explains countersteering:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxM_GU7W-dE[/YOUTUBE]

Great! What a good teacher!
Who needs controlled conditions? "I wish I knew where this road went ... oh f..."

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