Pre-Election Poll

[idleidolidyll]

Seems like idle is in search of the truth with the intention of placing it under house arrest.

Gosh, how to say nothing in 18 words! Congrats

Kiwis, for the first time, now outnumber Brits emigrating to Oz... I wonder why.

Because successive governments have driven down the real income of Kiwis. National's Employments Contracts Act was the most culpable in that game.

This country is way overtaxed - a flat rate tax system would improve things markedly, but every time some form of tax relief discussion comes up, Labour says it'll have to cut cut social services - despite the fact that they now rake in a record high in taxation.

A flat tax system would place most of the burden on the shoulders of the poor and middle incomed and would push wealth even further toward the already rich.
Of course decreases in tax mean less social services; that's what happened in the USA. Social services were cut and cut and cut and then when it was found that they were needed, they were placed in the hands of corporations (capitalists) who charge MORE than the cost in tax ever was. What's worse, that's pre-tax more.

They've turned NZ into a welfare state, where things like pride, patriotism, personal responsibility, have no place. A place where parents are afraid to discipline their kids for fear of state retribution...

Yawn, jingoisms really don't impress me. That paragraph is pure propaganda trash.
BTW: The anti smacking bill was a Green Party bill not a Labour one.

We also have state-funded militant separatism - where we, the taxpayer, pick up the tab for radical activists. Doesn't sound like Utopia to me

We also have state funded capitalism where far too much influence and power is given to greedy men and women who are more interested in themselves than in the people themselves. Pretty soon, if National gets in, we'll move even closer to Yank style politics where election promises are always bullshit and politicians do the work of the corporates who fund their campaigns.

You only need to look at Sweden to see what happens in a failing socialist bureaucracy. Youth crime out of control, increased regulation as politicians try to band-aid a social cancer created out of failed idealism. And just like here, the blind still don't see that socialism is the problem, not the solution

You only need to look at the USA to see what happens in a failing capitalist bureaucracy. Youth crime out of control, exporting terrorism, slaughtering millions in the name of the almighty dollar, increased regulation as politicians try to siphon more wealth upward to corporates and politicians. And just like here, the blind still don't see that capitalism is the problem, not the solution

[idleidolidyll]

Surprised so many say national.
Past their tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, somthings shit so it's the goverments fault they really don't seem to offer alot in real potential.
Im not a huge fan of labour either but they certainly currently seem to offer more.

Shit aint that bad, most of us have jobs and I don't buy into Nationals shitslinging

I don't actually vote Labour but it's silly to ignore the fact that income has increased both for ordinary people and for businesses under Labour.

National is doing well at the moment but we are nearly a year out from elections and they've offered bugger all concrete policy; just personal attacks and "me tooism"........................kinda like this forum.

[MisterD]

National is doing well at the moment but we are nearly a year out from elections and they've offered bugger all concrete policy;

That's just standard oppposition party behaviour now, ever since one T. Blair first got elected using precisely that tactic.

The hard truth is, opposition parties don't win elections, governments lose them, so when they're in as big a hole as this crowd why not let them keep digging?

[Finn]

I don't actually vote Labour but it's silly to ignore the fact that income has increased both for ordinary people and for businesses under Labour.

What utter bullshit Idle. What the fuck has Labour done to increase income for businesses exactly? If a business succeeds in this shitty market, it's because of good leadership and has NOTHING to do with fucken Helen you dumbarse.

The only reason "ordinary" peoples income has risen marginally (still WAY behind Australia) is because of supply and demand. This is because SO many talented people are leaving this shithole.

What colour is the sky in your little world?

[devnull]

Yep, the US welfare reforms really crashed & burned...

In the USA, when they woke up to how career welfare mothers were blighting the lives of their children in order stay on benefits, the Government changed the system. Their welfare reform programme, signed into law in 1996 by Democratic President Bill Clinton, aimed to ‘abolish welfare as we know it’. The key intent was to get welfare mothers off benefits and into mainstream life. They required sole parent beneficiaries to undertake work, training or community service activities for a minimum of 30 hours a week. In order to create a sense of urgency, they introduced time limits of two years for the continuous receipt of welfare and five years over a lifetime. They also paid the benefit at a set rate irrespective of the number of children, to discourage women from having more children just to make more money.

Essentially these reforms replaced their equivalent of our Domestic Purposes Benefit, which provides open-ended income support, with a programme which gave temporary assistance conditional on work. A life-raft of support services such as child care, transport help, relocation assistance and financial planning advice, were also provided. The single purpose of these benefits was to remove the barriers to employment and ease these beneficiaries into jobs.

The results were remarkable. The welfare caseload fell by 60% from 5 million to 2 million families as welfare mothers found work. The biggest improvement by far was among women who had never been married. Overall, by 2002 the poverty rate amongst black children and sole parents fell to their lowest levels in US history, with 2.6 million fewer adults and 2.8 million fewer children living in poverty than six years earlier.

[idleidolidyll]

That's just standard oppposition party behaviour now, ever since one T. Blair first got elected using precisely that tactic.

The hard truth is, opposition parties don't win elections, governments lose them, so when they're in as big a hole as this crowd why not let them keep digging?

sadly you're right and that's a valid condemnation of the state of political awareness and education in the West

regardless of who the victor might be, they will be elected more through ignorance and belief in spin than on real actions and policies

[rainman]

Left wing voters start off voting for what their school teachers brain wash them about.

As they gain real life experience/intelligence they start to think for themselves and they move more to the right!

Those that remain loyal to the left are victims of the boiled frog syndrome.

Those that move to the right are free thinkers! Cheers, John.

Hmmm, not so sure, John. My teachers were pretty right-wing, and I moved right as I got older, but then moved back to the left as I grew up and began to think more about the world, the future my kids will have, and the needs of other people. I like to think this is a standard mental progression - as we get older we're less self-obsessed? Personally I'm disappointed in the attitude of the (libertarian) right in NZ. There's a particularly nasty "survival of the fittest" streak to many (not all) righties that doesn't take much scratching to expose.

The only people that dislike Capitalism are mostly people like yourself who haven't achieved much in life and have little money.

Sorry, no. I dislike capitalism (well, I don't think it's structurally fair, mature, or inherently sustainable) but I have achieved a fair deal, have a high-paying job by NZ standards, and am quite rich enough (well, I could always have more, but I'd only go spend it on motorcycles and other stuff I don't need....)

[Finn]

Sorry, no. I dislike capitalism (well, I don't think it's structurally fair, mature, or inherently sustainable) but I have achieved a fair deal, have a high-paying job by NZ standards, and am quite rich enough (well, I could always have more, but I'd only go spend it on motorcycles and other stuff I don't need....)

Well, you are the rainman after all. Still, you're an excellent driver so you have something to be proud of.

[Usarka]

There's a particularly nasty "survival of the fittest" streak to many (not all) righties that doesn't take much scratching to expose.

as opposed to the survival of the laziest....

[rainman]

Well, you are the rainman after all. Still, you're an excellent driver so you have something to be proud of.

Witty

But my nickname is actually unrelated to the movie...

[Skyryder]

Left wing voters start off voting for what their school teachers brain wash them about.

As they gain real life experience/intelligence they start to think for themselves and they move more to the right!

(The adage: Those that can, do! Those that can't, teach! Springs to mind)

Those that remain loyal to the left are victims of the boiled frog syndrome.

Those that move to the right are free thinkers! Cheers, John.

1 Same could be said or those that attend private schools.

2 Many that 'can' make terrible teachers. In reality there is no comparisons.

3 The French are renowned for their cuisine so it's not a bad analogy.

4 Bollocks. They charge for their knowledge. Nothing free about the right.


Skyyrder

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

It doesn't matter who you vote for... A politican gets in

[MSTRS:Me]

The poll speaks for itself. Most of 'us' are ready to see the back of the bullshit that is currently jerking our (purse)strings....time will tell whether a change will be good for NZ.

[Sanx]

Quotes?
I got a million of em:

"There seems to be nothing to prevent the transnational corporations taking possession of the planet and subjecting humanity to the dictatorship of capital.... In order to crush any thought of organized resistance to the supporters of the new world order, tremendous police and military forces are being used to establish a doctrine of repression...."

— Christian la Brie
Le Monde Diplomatique
Paris

And in other news:

• Elvis found alive and well in a chip shop in Whakatane
• JFK assassinated by the FBI. We show you the proof!
• Inside Diana's last moments. How Prince Philip and MI5 had her silenced.
• Neil Armstrong reveals moon landings were a fake.
• We reveal the shadowy fingerprint of Mossad behind the 9/11.
• The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. We exclusively publish the sequel.

These threads are getting to be like conversations with religious fundamentalists. On one side, you have the majority of respondents. On the other, you have III. It goes a bit like this:

Majority: Reasoned argument. Small factoid in support of argument. Quote to re-inforce point.
III: YAAAWWWWN! Right-wing media distort truth. Capitalism evil. Corporations evil. Media evil. Government evil, apart from the form of government and policies that I like, but I'm not going to expound them 'cos then I'd actually have to provide a fact.
Majority: But no. Another statement of fact. More reasoning. More presentation of quotes and facts.
III: ROTFLMFAO!!!!!! Media puppets! Corporate slaves! The truth is out there but you're all blinded by corporate propoganda.

A sure fire way of winning an argument is to state something that is so preposterous that trying to counter becomes an exercise in futility. It's a trick religious fundamentalists have used for years. I'm sure some of them actually believe it but it goes to show how similar, in many respects, religion and politics are. The more fundamental the belief, the less open one becomes to reason, logic, evidence and simple common sense.

So, III, why don't you actually explain what political system you support, what this involves and what policies / governance you'd like to see implemented in your ideal world. And try and do it without resorting to negative comments about existing politicians, parties or governments. I'm sure some of use would really like to see a clearly set-out list of III's policitcal beliefs.

[MSTRS:Me]

I'm sure some of use would really like to see a clearly set-out list of III's policitcal beliefs.

Not really.