Integrating into a foreign society

[James Deuce]

What a load of crap.

We live under the Westminster system, (and we are independent or have you been asleep during the last few elections) not under the thumbs of the Queen

Skyryder

We're not independent actually. We became a Realm in 1980 something, and there are still issues with that status in regard to full independence. We were a Dominion prior to that which effectively meant any decision our pollies made could have been overridden by the Governor-General or the "British" parliament, or the Queen if she was particularly interested. Becoming a realm reduced the powers of all the previous parties, and with the Privy Council leaving us (not the other way round as has been incorrectly reported many times), we have an opportunity to establish a consititution and an independent legislature that understands NZ issues.

Which would effectively be a modern founding document for the NZ state and an opportunity to comprehensively address the issues that have been raised in this discussion.

The Westminster system is probably a misnomer when describing the NZ parliament now as we have no upper house and proportional representation.

[Jackrat]

Indeed. Isn't it inherently racist to divide the country into ethnicities? Despite having genes from ancestors of various countries on the other side of the world, I do not see myself as a European, nor as a Pakeha, and object to being called either, and to being forced to identify myself as either. I am a New Zealander, and that's that. If I had any Maori blood, even 1/64th, I could legitimately call myself a Maori, but it wouldn't markedly change anything for me. I bet there are some 1/8th or 1/64th Maori whose non-Maori ancestors arrived in the country long after my ancestors. So who has more of a claim to "ownership", and why?
And how whacky is it that some people are paid compensation for the sins committed by their European ancestors against their Maori ancestors?

Good question mate,
I'm 1/8th Maori but don't identify myself as Maori,I also hate being called a Pakeha.I find the term bloody offensive.My older sister used her Maori blood lines to buy a farm and identifys as being Maori,yet she's as white as a sheet.
And there's your answer,Because there's money in it,an we NEW ZEALANDERS are paying for it.

[TwoSeven]

I'll tick british if there is a box on the form, if not i'll tick other and either right british or english depending on my mood (its whats listed in my passport so thats what I write). I too find Pakeha rather offensive because it lables me as something I am not.

[rodgerd]

I'll tick british if there is a box on the form, if not i'll tick other and either right british or english depending on my mood (its whats listed in my passport so thats what I write). I too find Pakeha rather offensive because it lables me as something I am not.

Me, I'm a Pacific Islander. No, not a Polynesian or Melanesian. But I was born on an island in the South Pacific, I've lived on a South Pacific island most of my life, and I'm damned if I'll call myself "European" or "British". I've lived in Europe, and all it did was remind me my heart is in this land
.

[Ms Piggy]

The house in question was one of the first state houses. Now you may not think that a state house is worth protecting, your choice, but it is a piece of "our culture." New Zealand culture is historicly linked to both England and Australia. To try and seperate them' can be difficult but not impossable. One example of this is one of the older suberbs of Chch Sydenham. This was the working class area and our founding fathers in their wisdom decided to call the streets after' poets and writers. Wordsworth St, Coleridges St Tennyson St etc. This is culture and in particular a little bit of Christchuch culture. Not too sure how old you are C S L but if you do not know what the kiwi culture is by now slow down and look. It is all about, usually tucked in next to the American culture.

Incedently tonight is a little bit our culture aka English culture Guy Fawks night. But it is slowly beaing eclipsed by Hallowen.


Skyryder

Hey I wasn't make a dig at your statement I was just asking a general genuine question about what other people (including yourself) think New Zealand culture is. I'm intersted to know. I'm thirty mumble mumble btw. I had a chat with a friend and she had just been o/s and said that it became very clear to her that N.Z has it's own culture while she was o/s. Maybe b/c I haven't been o/s I am not so aware of it. Hence my reason for the question.

[James Deuce]

Me, I'm a Pacific Islander. No, not a Polynesian or Melanesian. But I was born on an island in the South Pacific, I've lived on a South Pacific island most of my life, and I'm damned if I'll call myself "European" or "British". I've lived in Europe, and all it did was remind me my heart is in this land
.

Dude, I always write Tangata Pasifika on the line next to "Other".

[Skyryder]

Hey I wasn't make a dig at your statement I was just asking a general genuine question about what other people (including yourself) think New Zealand culture is. I'm intersted to know. I'm thirty mumble mumble btw. I had a chat with a friend and she had just been o/s and said that it became very clear to her that N.Z has it's own culture while she was o/s. Maybe b/c I haven't been o/s I am not so aware of it. Hence my reason for the question.

No dig taken CS. Just a little advice with this fast pace of our lives. Sometimes you realy do have to slow down to see what is going on, and not just on the bike.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

We're not independent actually. We became a Realm in 1980 something, and there are still issues with that status in regard to full independence. We were a Dominion prior to that which effectively meant any decision our pollies made could have been overridden by the Governor-General or the "British" parliament, or the Queen if she was particularly interested. Becoming a realm reduced the powers of all the previous parties, and with the Privy Council leaving us (not the other way round as has been incorrectly reported many times), we have an opportunity to establish a consititution and an independent legislature that understands NZ issues.

Which would effectively be a modern founding document for the NZ state and an opportunity to comprehensively address the issues that have been raised in this discussion.

The Westminster system is probably a misnomer when describing the NZ parliament now as we have no upper house and proportional representation.

Whether New Zealand is independent has very much to do how the nature of 'political independance' is interperated. Like most words in the English language independence can be applied in many ways all of which allude to a general theme. You state that we are not independent. That is correct in as much that we are subject to numerous international treaties and convention but wrong when these treaties and convention have been entered into willingly and by our choosing. I have p-osted a link on the Westminster System of which the New Zealand Parliment operates under. While it is true that an upper house is part of the West. System it is not a prerequisite. http://www.fact-index.com/w/we/westminster_system.html

I think this is waht you are talking about. Not too sure of the reason for the change from a Dominion to a Realm but at a guess it would formalise some measure of responsibility over the said islands and the Ross Dependency. This is a guess on my part. There has been no change in the role of the Queens Representitive concerning legislation: as far as I know.

The New Zealand Letters Patent and associated Prerogative Instruments which describe the Realm of New Zealand and constitute the office of the Governor-General of New Zealand, state the following:

“Her Majesty the Queen of New Zealand does hereby constitute, order and declare that there should be, in and over the Realm of New Zealand including the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and the Ross Dependency, a Governor-General and Commander-in-Chief who shall be our representative in Our said Realm of New Zealand, and shall have and may exercise the powers and authorities conferred on him by these Our Letters Patent .."


This link gives a brief outline of our Constitution. http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

I am of the opinion that the Republican sentiment that now appears to be gathering momentum has more to do with the belief that if New Zealand goes down the Republican road then the Treaty of Waitangi and its issues will be swept away. This will not happen. I could write volums on this but when you consider that our system has survived since the days of King John and the Magna Carta and the political evolution has taken place from then till now in reguards to the Westminster system along with all of its variations, I do not believe that any republican model will survive the length of time that our current system has.

Skyryder








http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

[Ms Piggy]

No dig taken CS. Just a little advice with this fast pace of our lives. Sometimes you realy do have to slow down to see what is going on, and not just on the bike.

Skyryder

I was kinda aware from your original posting what you meant anyway

But no one has really answered my question on what is N.Z culture yet. Which is what I was asking.

Btw - I think historical buildings should be preserved. Too right!

[James Deuce]

Whether New Zealand is independent has very much to do how the nature of 'political independance' is interperated. Like most words in the English language independence can be applied in many ways all of which allude to a general theme. You state that we are not independent. That is correct in as much that we are subject to numerous international treaties and convention but wrong when these treaties and convention have been entered into willingly and by our choosing. I have p-osted a link on the Westminster System of which the New Zealand Parliment operates under. While it is true that an upper house is part of the West. System it is not a prerequisite. http://www.fact-index.com/w/we/westminster_system.html

I think this is waht you are talking about. Not too sure of the reason for the change from a Dominion to a Realm but at a guess it would formalise some measure of responsibility over the said islands and the Ross Dependency. This is a guess on my part. There has been no change in the role of the Queens Representitive concerning legislation: as far as I know.

The New Zealand Letters Patent and associated Prerogative Instruments which describe the Realm of New Zealand and constitute the office of the Governor-General of New Zealand, state the following:

“Her Majesty the Queen of New Zealand does hereby constitute, order and declare that there should be, in and over the Realm of New Zealand including the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and the Ross Dependency, a Governor-General and Commander-in-Chief who shall be our representative in Our said Realm of New Zealand, and shall have and may exercise the powers and authorities conferred on him by these Our Letters Patent .."


This link gives a brief outline of our Constitution. http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

I am of the opinion that the Republican sentiment that now appears to be gathering momentum has more to do with the belief that if New Zealand goes down the Republican road then the Treaty of Waitangi and its issues will be swept away. This will not happen. I could write volums on this but when you consider that our system has survived since the days of King John and the Magna Carta and the political evolution has taken place from then till now in reguards to the Westminster system along with all of its variations, I do not believe that any republican model will survive the length of time that our current system has.

Skyryder



http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

You are right, and it does depend on interpretation. I think you've taken the ultra conservative view.

The Westminster system is not a perfect system, despite a long history and tradition, and it most certainly does not entertain the illusion of free speech or individual rights. The freedom of action of the state in relation to international standing and issues, and the rights of government and corporate bodies take precedence over individual rights. New Zealand does not have an independant charter or a constitution of it's own. We have adopted someone else's irrespective of whether or not it fits, which it palpably doesn't given the level of dissatisfaction evident in a wide range of NZ society. If we are independant why retain a Governer General, an archaic role designed to make sure that the wild colonials toe an irrelevant line?

I believe that our society has changed out of all recognition in the last 20 years, and the laws and regulations of the UK and the Commonwealth do not reflect NZ's changing place in the world. We have certainly been economically disadvantaged by our attitude toward Commonwealth trading partner priorities, and most certainly have little in common with the UK, other than a fascination with a minority oval ball sport. Ignore the fact that we have diverged from our historical base significantly and you risk a case of Ostrich Syndrome.

I am all for managed change. However the nature of NZ politics prevents managed and structured change thanks to a 3 year electoral term. I've worked in Government and the cycle goes; Election, Break all the promises, define the real agenda, organise the budget to implement the agenda, begin implementation, cease implementation to begin telling the next round promises that will be broken at the next election. That suits a Constitutional Mornarchy down to the ground because nothing ever changes or if it does it gets so FUBARed that it actually harms the people it was designed to help. Constitutional and Electoral reform shouldn't be a negative process. It should bear the promise of a unique and dynamic society rather than a hidebound backward looking conservative nostalgia-fest.

CSL - define the word culture within the frame of reference that it has been bandied about to describe the make up and structure of a society and its dynamic nature and you will have a difficult task. Culture is one of those words with an assumed dennotative meaning, when in fact the connotations defeat an attempt at definition, particularly at an individual level. Dig deeper on that one and you find that everybody has an idea, though it will be vague and wildly different.

[pete376403]

The not locking your house and car thing was BS IMO. My grandmother who was born in 1920, never remembered it that way, and she grew up in a rural part of Hamilton.

My dad was an electrician in Upper Hutt, in the 60s and 70's. He used to leave his van, a Commer with sliding doors, parked on the street, with the keys in it. Often he would leave the drivers door open. In the back of the van were his tools, reels of copper wire, and other electrical goods. As far as I am aware, nothing ever went missing.
As for locking the doors, the front door was always locked because no one ever used that door. The back door only got locked when we were on holiday.

[Ms Piggy]

CSL - define the word culture within the frame of reference that it has been bandied about to describe the make up and structure of a society and its dynamic nature and you will have a difficult task. Culture is one of those words with an assumed dennotative meaning, when in fact the connotations defeat an attempt at definition, particularly at an individual level. Dig deeper on that one and you find that everybody has an idea, though it will be vague and wildly different.

Exactly, this is kinda my point. What one person considers a valuable & valid part of N.Z culture another may not and it has (I'm sure) changed & evolved greatly since N.Z was 1st colonised. Tricky, tricky, tricky.

[Ms Piggy]

That whole discussion on "the good ole days" here in N.Z is generally rubbish. It wasn't that bad stuff didn't happen, it was that it wasn't talked about or recognised. Well in my Grandmothers experience as a young girl in rural N.Z that was certainly the case - incest, adultery, violence, theft....no such thing as "the good ole days", it's just portrayed that way. When you think about it, for an example, issues like child molestation used to be treated extremely differently.

[rodgerd]

My dad was an electrician in Upper Hutt, in the 60s and 70's. He used to leave his van, a Commer with sliding doors, parked on the street, with the keys in it. Often he would leave the drivers door open. In the back of the van were his tools, reels of copper wire, and other electrical goods. As far as I am aware, nothing ever went missing.
As for locking the doors, the front door was always locked because no one ever used that door. The back door only got locked when we were on holiday.

*shrug* My wife's great-uncle lives in Auckland and leaves the keys in his car, which is a standard, newish econobox. Doesn't seem to cause problems.

[merv]

That whole discussion on "the good ole days" here in N.Z is generally rubbish. It wasn't that bad stuff didn't happen, it was that it wasn't talked about or recognised. Well in my Grandmothers experience as a young girl in rural N.Z that was certainly the case - incest, adultery, violence, theft....no such thing as "the good ole days", it's just portrayed that way. When you think about it, for an example, issues like child molestation used to be treated extremely differently.

Just no TV to graphically publicise it eh!