Integrating into a foreign society

[El Dopa]

This opens a whole can of worms.....
If we are going to impose restrictions on muslims (e.g.: wearing burqas is strange; they have to take of their burqas in court, supermarket, shops, etc; they cannot wear burqas in schools, etc) doesn't it mean we are discriminating them and becoming just the same as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc, then? in other words, "restrictions placed on them that aren't also applied to those practising the dominant religion" becomes true to us.
Do we really want to be that kind of society that we so look down at?

How ironic it is that it's so easy to be what you don't want to be when the situation is flipped..... eh?

Just the point I was going to make, although I think Kickaha's reply also made a good point.

And whilst I'm posting, I reckon the whole nostalgia 'lock yer door with a piece of string, round here it were all field when I were a lad' thing is rubbish.

Whoever mentioned the whole America in the '50's was spot on. Yeah, there might have been full employment, gentlemen tipped their hats to ladies in the street etc etc. BUT....

If you voiced a dissenting and mildly left-of-centre opinion, you were a 'red', and had effectively isolated yourself from the rest of society. Freedom of speech, my arse.

If you were black, it was open season all year round.

If you were a woman, stay at home and spit out babies. Oh, and don't open your mouth, because your opinions aren't worth shit.

If you wanted to do anything slightly different, I dunno, be an actor or something that wasn't 9-5, pissed on Friday night, watch the game Saturday, you were a 'faggot', and again it was open season.

Oh, and as has already been mentioned, if you got a tattoo, you were either a gang member or a slut.

[El Dopa]

An Aussie, a Kiwi and a South African are drinking in a pub.......the South African skulls his beer, tosses his empty glass in the air and shoots it. "In seth afrika, he says, we have so much glass we dont need to drink from the same glass twice.



The Aussie was impressed so he tosses his empty glass into the air and shoots it. "In Austrraalia" he says, "we have so much sand to make glass, we dont need to drink from the same glass twice".......



The Kiwi finished his beer, tosses his glass in the air and shoots the South African and Aussie and says....."In New Zealand, we have so many f#cking Australians and South Africans, we dont need to drink with the same ones twice"

And this from a Kiwi in Australia.
HAHAHAH

[Skyryder]

Don't get me swtarted on this subject. Not so long ago some asian took a slice of a house that had a protected status. He has been ordered to turn the house back to it's original condition. Said immigrant on TV believed that as he owned the house he thought that he could do as he pleased. What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

Today on the news some Indian shopkeeper was selling imported honey from India. They break our laws with impunity and there is a fucking industry funded by our taxpayer money supporting them.

Skyryder

[Joni]

An Aussie, a Kiwi and a South African are drinking in a pub.......the South African skulls his beer, tosses his empty glass in the air and shoots it. "In seth afrika, he says, we have so much glass we dont need to drink from the same glass twice.

The Aussie was impressed so he tosses his empty glass into the air and shoots it. "In Austrraalia" he says, "we have so much sand to make glass, we dont need to drink from the same glass twice".......

The Kiwi finished his beer, tosses his glass in the air and shoots the South African and Aussie and says....."In New Zealand, we have so many f#cking Australians and South Africans, we dont need to drink with the same ones twice"

And this from a Kiwi in Australia.
HAHAHAH

Classic Gixxer!!!
Admit it... theres a few of us ya love!!!

Mmmmm South African Beer! :love2:

[Skyryder]

Kiwis I find are pretty racist but not of the intentional kind - its more thru ignorance and lack of exposure to the rest of the world -

The so called racist attitude of New Zealanders is not based on culture, skin colour etc. Nor is it based on ignorance and lack of expoosure to the rest of the world. New Zealand was subject to imigration policies that had more to do with our politicians self serving morality and gooody goody feelings about themselves than to the electorate to which they serve. No political party had a mandate to open the floodgates of immigration. New Zealanders have no tradition of racism. It's just that we have had our county changed by the so called diversity of culture by our politicians who have not had the authority or the peoples mandate to do this. Now I for one am a bit upset about this and realise that there is little that I as an indavidual can do. But if I am called a racist because of my opinions on this subject then so be it.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

Aren't we a nation of immigrants? Everybody who's here is the result of some migration, planned or otherwise, from parts "foreign". So some of us have been here longer than others and feel like "something special" is being eroded by the arrival of people who aren't really much like "us". If that's the case then people who feel threatened must be pretty insecure with their lot.

The only one thing constant in this life is change. Get over it.

[Hitcher]

Today on the news some Indian shopkeeper was selling imported honey from India. They break our laws with impunity and there is a fucking industry funded by our taxpayer money supporting them.

Don't believe everything you hear on the news. There is considerably more involved in this particular tale then the media is reporting. Wait until it goes to Court.

[merv]

New Zealanders have no tradition of racism. It's just that we have had our county changed by the so called diversity of culture by our politicians who have not had the authority or the peoples mandate to do this. Now I for one am a bit upset about this and realise that there is little that I as an indavidual can do.

Skyryder

You can do something, vote for Winston at the next election.

[MikeL]

Aren't we a nation of immigrants? Everybody who's here is the result of some migration, planned or otherwise, from parts "foreign". So some of us have been here longer than others and feel like "something special" is being eroded by the arrival of people who aren't really much like "us". If that's the case then people who feel threatened must be pretty insecure with their lot.

The only one thing constant in this life is change. Get over it.

A bit simplistic, Hitcher. Doesn't address the issue of how much control we can and should have over our own destiny. Your philosophy seems to come down to "Accept any change and adapt to it." Should the British in 1940 have shrugged their shoulders and set about learning to live with Nazi Kultur?
An extreme example, obviously, but I think the principle is the same.

Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations?

And I think that being threatened and feeling insecure is not necessarily a reflection of any sense of national or cultural inferiority.

[Mongoose]

Just a wee thought(probably all I am capable of ) but why do some people claim that the majority are being intolerent of a minority who are being intolerent? In this I mean that a few people expect NZ society to change to their wants but are not prepared to change in any way to fit in with NZ society.
Any fundamentalist, pick any flavour you want, are intolerant and will never change, all the give is from one side.

[Drunken Monkey]

...Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations? ....

Immigration is one tool used to balance (in New Zealand's case: boost) growth. Since the local population isn't growing at a fast enough rate to keep the economy moving, the government supplements with immigration.
There are basically 2 ways for people to get into NZ, either for economic purposes, where they must prove funds to start a new business, or show they have skills in an area we are lacking. The other was is to join family who have already moved to NZ.
Limits attempt to control the influx of less desirable skills, but tend to do nothing to stop people immigrating for family reasons. They can also be used to cut the overall immigration rate if the local economy can't handle the growth (or raised if growth needs to be increased)
So yes, there are factors that are other than economic, ie family, although the overall impact of this I'm not sure of. Should there be any more factors? Economic and family factors can be quantifiably measured, so it's easier to use them as metering tools. It's a bit harder to measure an immigrant's 'cultural value'.
Economic factors will always be the driving force as long as we continue capitolism, for obvious reasons. Growth is the key factor - one could write an entire thesis on why, I'm sure a quick google search will satisfy the curious
Quite an interesting docco on the History channel the other day about the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. Once it reached its outer limits, it could no longer fund it's army by the lands/goods seized during its camapaigns, thus the quality and size of the army was reduced and the Emprie began to crumble. The overall factor in beginning the downfall: lack of growth.

[James Deuce]

Just a wee thought(probably all I am capable of ) but why do some people claim that the majority are being intolerent of a minority who are being intolerent? In this I mean that a few people expect NZ society to change to their wants but are not prepared to change in any way to fit in with NZ society.
Any fundamentalist, pick any flavour you want, are intolerant and will never change, all the give is from one side.

You have a really good point, but the thing to bear in mind is thanks to our journalistic standards we only get to hear about the extremists, so the moderates get tarred with the same brush. We hear very little about people who successfully bridge cultural differences in both an active and passive fashion.

[Hitcher]

A bit simplistic, Hitcher. Doesn't address the issue of how much control we can and should have over our own destiny. Your philosophy seems to come down to "Accept any change and adapt to it." Should the British in 1940 have shrugged their shoulders and set about learning to live with Nazi Kultur?
An extreme example, obviously, but I think the principle is the same.

Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations?

And I think that being threatened and feeling insecure is not necessarily a reflection of any sense of national or cultural inferiority.

No easy answers to these questions. Facism, like Communism, would have flourished if the Poms had adopted it first, in my view, as they are a culture that loves queing up for stuff and being pushed around by authority figures. The choices of Germany and Russia were poor ones by the inventors of both regimes. That is probably fodder for another thread!

Limits on immigration other than economic ones? This is dangerously subjective territory. Do we want a "white, affluent, English-speaking, Christian New Zealand policy" or are we prepared to be a bit more liberal and accommodating? As a society we have yet to figure out and answer to this but we tend to lean more towards a liberal rather than a xenophobically-restrictive approach.

[Mongoose]

Limits on immigration other than economic ones? This is dangerously subjective territory. Do we want a "white, affluent, English-speaking, Christian New Zealand policy" or are we prepared to be a bit more liberal and accommodating? As a society we have yet to figure out and answer to this but we tend to lean more towards a liberal rather than a xenophobically-restrictive approach.

A more liberal and accommadating approach is just fine, it works, look at all the muslims that fit in, no one even notices their faith because it does not interfer with their everyday life in NZ.
A decent set of guidelines and standing up for those guidelines would be a good start. As someone said way up there its like driving on the "wrong" side of the road, everyone seems to manage that.
As soon as you make one exception to your own set of rules, guidelines, whatever you want to call them, that is when you get problems.

[Marmoot]

Don't get me swtarted on this subject. Not so long ago some asian took a slice of a house that had a protected status. He has been ordered to turn the house back to it's original condition. Said immigrant on TV believed that as he owned the house he thought that he could do as he pleased. What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

I don't think you need an Asian to do that. Even some so-called "proud New Zealanders" are already wrecking their own backyard. Remember the Piha guy who burned trees behind his home? What about those "kiwi" youngsters who spit and spat and throw chewed gums everywhere they walk? Or grafitti taggers? Or even kiwis who abused other kiwis and wreck the environment and kill the birds and do whatever they want? Humans are just humans, no matter what they are.

And

What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

I am sure the Maori felt the same way when the immigrant from England came here during the exploration? Oh, right....those were the real New Zealanders....or were they? And the fact that Maori themselves were immigrant on the first place?

Maybe we need to reflect upon ourselves before we cast the stone onto somebody else? I think humans are just humans, and will bring at least a part of their culture everywhere they go.

In the end maybe if cultures keep on spreading around the world then all place will be multicultural and it will come up to what we have been dreaming of: one peaceful world?