Integrating into a foreign society

[MikeL]

Do we want a "white, affluent, English-speaking, Christian New Zealand policy"

No. As I've said before, multiculturalism and ethnic diversity have made NZ a vastly more vibrant and interesting place. For those of us old enough to remember, the changes and adaptations that have been made since the 60s are enormous. The debate, as I see it, comes down to the extent to which we can and should protect values and lifestyles that in the past have made this country unique. The nexus of economic growth, immigration and cultural identity is the key issue. And the thorny question is the right of those of us with a longer claim to "ownership" of this country (and I include Maori specifically in this) to determine its economic and cultural future...

[MikeL]

In the end maybe if cultures keep on spreading around the world then all place will be multicultural ?

And everybody will be the same. McDonaldization of the world may be your dream, it's my nightmare.

[vifferman]

Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations?

Something I have pondered myself, at times. My son, who has a form of autism, tends to pose questions like this, as he doesn't always see things the way we do. His view is that if people should be free to live wherever the hell they like, and if there were no distinct countries, nations, borders, etc., and people weren't so possessive and teritorial, there'd be fewer wars. Overly simplistic, I know, but still makes you think.

In the 'old days', when folk used to live in the same place for hundreds of years, unless they got an itch to wander, or ran out of resources, there were few restrictions on migration. If somewhere a person turned up who looked/sounded/acted differently, they may have been subject to suspicion, hostility and discrimination, or they may have just made their new home.
In this day of rapid travel, it's very easy for people to travel almost anywhere.
Should they be allowed to?
Are those who were 'there first' allowed to dictate who else can live there, and who cannot? Why/why not?
Ultimately, each of us is only here for a lifetime, so we can't own and keep whatever piece of dirt we camp on. But I guess while we are encamped, we like to live without others bothering us, so establish rules to prevent that happening.
I believe if we are going to say, "This is our country - we will decide who will live here with us!", then factors other than economic ones are important. It would make our lot worse if we allow immigrantion of those who are going to ultimately lower our standard of living due to being dependent on us, or having criminal or other undesirable characteristics. Our culture to a large extent determines what our view of what is 'undesirable' is, and we can't help that, we can't help being subjective and judging things according to the standards of our culture. Of course, our culture does change with time, as it is influenced by other cultures, so those standards change too.

[vifferman]

And the thorny question is the right of those of us with a longer claim to "ownership" of this country (and I include Maori specifically in this) to determine its economic and cultural future...

Indeed. Isn't it inherently racist to divide the country into ethnicities? Despite having genes from ancestors of various countries on the other side of the world, I do not see myself as a European, nor as a Pakeha, and object to being called either, and to being forced to identify myself as either. I am a New Zealander, and that's that. If I had any Maori blood, even 1/64th, I could legitimately call myself a Maori, but it wouldn't markedly change anything for me. I bet there are some 1/8th or 1/64th Maori whose non-Maori ancestors arrived in the country long after my ancestors. So who has more of a claim to "ownership", and why?
And how whacky is it that some people are paid compensation for the sins committed by their European ancestors against their Maori ancestors?

[Ms Piggy]

The so called racist attitude of New Zealanders is not based on culture, skin colour etc. Nor is it based on ignorance and lack of expoosure to the rest of the world. New Zealand was subject to imigration policies that had more to do with our politicians self serving morality and gooody goody feelings about themselves than to the electorate to which they serve. No political party had a mandate to open the floodgates of immigration. New Zealanders have no tradition of racism. It's just that we have had our county changed by the so called diversity of culture by our politicians who have not had the authority or the peoples mandate to do this. Now I for one am a bit upset about this and realise that there is little that I as an indavidual can do. But if I am called a racist because of my opinions on this subject then so be it.

Skyryder

Original policies encouraging immigration of Pasifika peoples in the 70's was for a cheap unskilled labour source. While they were still needed Government and employers overlooked the fact that their work visas had expired and "encouraged" them to stay and enter into a settled lifestyle here, then when the economic down turn came they were overstayers and there were the dawn raids.

If thats not targetted racism I dunno what is.

Possibly what you're refering to are current policies Skyyder but, I'm not that familar with them.

[Ms Piggy]

You have a really good point, but the thing to bear in mind is thanks to our journalistic standards we only get to hear about the extremists, so the moderates get tarred with the same brush. We hear very little about people who successfully bridge cultural differences in both an active and passive fashion.

Thats so true Jim - a prime example of media manipulation and focusing on the extremists was when I went on the anti-racism march. The march itself had a really positive and non-aggressive atmsophere but, it got about 5 seconds of air time while to extremists that were hasseling the National Front (before the marchers were anywhere near parliament) got all the focus. Shots of a man with a bloodied head, people being arrested etc, etc and then media hype about how dangerous it would be in town that night! Arrrrrrrghhhhhhhh!!

[Ms Piggy]

What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

So what is "our culture"? I always find it interesting when people get their knickers in a knot about "destroying our culture" but, I'm not sure what that really is. I mean I have strong Scottish connections b/c it's where my ancestors are from and I'm aware that there are certain things that as a mianlander I say or do differently from a North Islander but...what is "our culture"?

Anybody?

And I have to agree with what Marmoot said I'm sure indigenous people all over the world got more than a little pissed off when their lands, culture and ways of life were destroyed and out lawed by colonists.

[Ms Piggy]

And everybody will be the same. McDonaldization of the world may be your dream, it's my nightmare.

If you're meaning we'll all end up the same - that scares me too but, I think multi-culturalism is inevitable and I think being culturally diverse is a great thing as long as it's not in a superior way.

[Blakamin]

So what is "our culture"?

I'm an Aussie.... VB an BBQ's .... followed by VB for breakky...

[Hitcher]

The debate, as I see it, comes down to the extent to which we can and should protect values and lifestyles that in the past have made this country unique.

Defining our intrinsic values and lifestyle is something that proves difficult for New Zealanders. Just look at the discussion about changing our flag -- should we continue to cling to a 50-year-old view of Queen and Empire or strive for something more self-actuated based on some underlying principles of "what it means to be a New Zealander"?

We have no "mission statement" or articulated set of "values". If we don't have agreement on what it is we value, then how can we protect anything? God help us that politicians should get involved in this process...

[Marmoot]

And everybody will be the same. McDonaldization of the world may be your dream, it's my nightmare.

McDonaldization = assimmilation, where in the end everybody has 1 culture.

What I referred was "multiculturalism", where in the whole world people live side by side even though their cultures are different, and they tolerate each other.
But I know that would be impossible in reality

Different meaning there, MikeL

[TwoSeven]

On the flag thing - the design I like is the black flag with a silver kiwi in the top left hand corner cupped in two silver ferns. Like the united nations emblem but with a kiwi instead of a map of the world.

You could leave the stars there in silver as well since they are pretty much an common symbol as well.

[vifferman]

Defining our intrinsic values and lifestyle is something that proves difficult for New Zealanders. Just look at the discussion about changing our flag -- should we continue to cling to a 50-year-old view of Queen and Empire or strive for something more self-actuated based on some underlying principles of "what it means to be a New Zealander"?

The later, I believe.

We have no "mission statement" or articulated set of "values". If we don't have agreement on what it is we value, then how can we protect anything? God help us that politicians should get involved in this process...

And we're unlikely to be able to sort this, till we become a republic, instead of a pseudo-colonial outpost of the British Empahh. I think we're beginning to take small steps down this road, when you look at what's happening with our courts hierarchy. And I think too that having at least one generation - maybe two - who don't think much of the whole concept of monarchy (especially now that 'Queen' Di is gone, so there's no-one to idolise), will help to speed us on the way to saying "we are independent, not under the thumb of the Queen".

[Skyryder]

So what is "our culture"? I always find it interesting when people get their knickers in a knot about "destroying our culture" but, I'm not sure what that really is. I mean I have strong Scottish connections b/c it's where my ancestors are from and I'm aware that there are certain things that as a mianlander I say or do differently from a North Islander but...what is "our culture"?

Anybody?.

The house in question was one of the first state houses. Now you may not think that a state house is worth protecting, your choice, but it is a piece of "our culture." New Zealand culture is historicly linked to both England and Australia. To try and seperate them' can be difficult but not impossable. One example of this is one of the older suberbs of Chch Sydenham. This was the working class area and our founding fathers in their wisdom decided to call the streets after' poets and writers. Wordsworth St, Coleridges St Tennyson St etc. This is culture and in particular a little bit of Christchuch culture. Not too sure how old you are C S L but if you do not know what the kiwi culture is by now slow down and look. It is all about, usually tucked in next to the American culture.

Incedently tonight is a little bit our culture aka English culture Guy Fawks night. But it is slowly beaing eclipsed by Hallowen.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

The later, I believe.

And we're unlikely to be able to sort this, till we become a republic, instead of a pseudo-colonial outpost of the British Empahh. I think we're beginning to take small steps down this road, when you look at what's happening with our courts hierarchy. And I think too that having at least one generation - maybe two - who don't think much of the whole concept of monarchy (especially now that 'Queen' Di is gone, so there's no-one to idolise), will help to speed us on the way to saying "we are independent, not under the thumb of the Queen".

What a load of crap.

We live under the Westminster system, (and we are independent or have you been asleep during the last few elections) not under the thumbs of the Queen

Skyryder