NZ Track days could be better

[Mental Trousers]

To add a point or two.

• Tracktime - I'd be suprised if Taupo did have a noise restriction. ...its quite far from any housing. ....noise restrictions are fairly fierce in the UK at tracks like Donington and Oulton.... but they still manage a full day of riding... sometimes in to the evening too. I never thought 6 or 7 sessions was too much.... if you prefer 5 you can arrive late or go home early. My point is that it is totally feasible to run 6 or 7 session and I think it should be done here. Better accident recovery would help.

Last track day I was at it went like this (as per the tracks resource consent I believe):
9:30am-10:00am you could have bikes on track but nobody going full noise, ie scrub in type session
10:00am-4:30pm this is the bit you pay for
4:30pm go home

• Emergency cover - as long as there is cover for every session, one ambo crew is fine... but running sessions without cover is unacceptable in my opinion.

There's always an ambulance there if there's sessions running, even if you can't see it. It was probably parked over by the gate waiting for another ambulance to turn up and transfer the rider to that one.

• Stunts and pillions - to an extent I accept the points made. The UK can be over regulated. Personally I would be appalled if there were a serious pillion injury. It is avoidable. I have no problem with stunts as long as they are done properly and out of harms way...

Trackdays are fantastic places to practice. Generally as long as people aren't doing wheelies in the middle of a group or in danger of ramming someone then they're not black flagged.
Pillion sessions are a fantastic way to get the missus etc involved. Ideally the pillion should be wearing more safety gear than the rider, but it is their choice. I wouldn't take anyone out without full gear, but others are fine with it.

• Instructors : the instructors I have spoken to in the Uk often do it for free, just to get the track time... their primary responsibility is to instruct/marshall but they get a lot of time to themselves at the track also. It might work here also...

Often (but not always) there's instructors hanging around. You just have to ask to find out who.

• GARAGES... its just pathetic to charge for a garage.... where is the cost to the track.... its a bad way to treat paying customers.

The track days are cheap. The cost of the garages is built into the track day costs overseas.

[Jorja]

I just spoke to Frosty about this thread.
To answer some questions raised
This applies to a FROSTY's track day but may apply to others
1) TRACK TIME We could open the track earlier but we are running the track days for the love not the money.So we arrive at a semi civilised hour of 7.30 for a first wheels on track of 9.45-10 am
2) yes the OFFICIAL closing time is 5.00pm -this is a track owners restriction.So we try to have every group cycled through as many times as poissible before then -sometimes its a 4.30 sometimes a 4.40 finish.-to be honest most times theres only about 5 people wanting to carry on riding by then
3)Pillions/stunts-we make it clear that stunting is not officially encouraged.
2 examples- a)experienced rider looks around sees clear track all around them and "accidently " lifts the front wheel.-we tend to be looking elsewhere if that "accident" occurs
b)egomanic pulls a mono through the middle of a bunch of slower bikes.-That person is OFF the track and will probably go home
Pillion sessions have proven to be a nightmare as far as speed differences etc so we wont run them
3)Ambulance.-Frosty has run a fair few of these events and has never had reason to need the second ambulance.-This is NOT nor ever will be a financial decision. If ever He felt it was neccassary to have a second ambulance it would be there -The safety of the riders is his number 1 Concern.
4) pit garages. They are available for hire and several groups have banded together at a Frosty's track day to use them.
This is a financial decision -Basicly if you want a garage,get one $its about $250 which divided amoungst a group of 4-8 people is pretty cheap.
5) training. I guess you have never been to a Frosty's track day.
He has had people like Shaun Harris,Glen Williams,Andrew Stroud and Jay Lawrence at his track days and they were there specifically for offering advice or one on one sessions if requested.
5)Session lenth -At Taupo we have settled on the formula of a FIRST session of 10 minutes to familarise yourself with the track and marshal positions. this is followed by 15 minutes sessions.
The reason being we feel that half an hour between rides is about the right length.
6) Gear/bike condition.-Scrutineering is done before riding starts.
Gear wise we feel that Cudura offers the correct level of protection for Taupo for ONE crash.Cudura/leather is the only gear Frosty accepts
8) track time -Basicly that is controlled not by Frosty and the team but by the RIDERS. If they dont crash then they get more track time.
9)Pricing. We restrict numbers to ensure safety $100 per person with 100 people maximum ensures everyone gets QUALITY track time. Can you please suppy a link to the TDO's running trackdays for $300.00-$450.00 as we understand you have used the wrong symbol I think you mean three hundred POUNDS to 450 POUNDS not dollars (frosty said he's hapy to stand corrected there)
Keeping in mind we dont run these days to make money we do it for love of the sport
7) accomodation. Frosty has a deal with a motel near the track.-Link etc is usually up.

[Mort]

Thanks for the detailed reply Jorja. Good points all... especially on the pillion/sunts, ambulance and training issues raised.

You're right, I havent attended one of Frosty's trackdays (but hope to some time). My (too few) 3 days here have been with MotoTT (I'd like to point out that I make no criticism of MotoTT in my posts - my points are for general discussion only and I entirely accept that others may have alternate opinions.)

• Tracktime - IMO This what we pay for and why we put so much time and effort in to attending these days. We should be looking at ways to maximise track time within the limits imposed by tracks and councils. I think its a waste not have bikes on the track from 9AM sharp. I also think the best formula is 20 minute sessions with 3 groups. 15 minutes is too short I feel and 25 minutes is too long. 4 groups with 20 minute sessions means there's too long waiting for the next session (especially around lunch). 6 sessions is easily attainable and 7 quite possible.
  
  
  
• Pit Garages - I'm sorry but there must be a culture clash here or something.... All UK circuits with garages (which is most of them) leave them open for the riders to use. I've never seen or heard of a circuit charging for use of a garage. Its not added (as an extra cost ) to the riders or the TDO. Its part of the circuit facilities which are being hired.
  You say it costs $250 (MotoTT say its $100).... Thats as much as the track day itself !! There's no cost to the track in opening the garages and they dont make much money by charging for them (because nobody wants to pay for them). Supposing I'm doing a track day on my own (which I do)... the cost of a garage is unacceptable and frankly I'd look ridiculous sat in my own garage if I were to pay for one. I could (say) put a post on here to team up with others.... but why should I have to ? (Not many others did clearly)... I just think its petty and mean to have 100 riders standing around in the hot sun all day outside locked garages. I just think its all wrong.
  
  
• Pricing - The prices I stated were in NZ$ (at $2.60 to the pound) and are approximately accurate for 2006/2007. I've had a quick look at some UK TDO websites but because its winter there many haven't posted costs for next summer. The costs you will see are for winter days or Spanish tracks (where track day addicts migrate to in winter)
  
  For those interested here's a list of some of the firms I have used.
  
  Focussed Events - This firm started small and grew because they are well managed and provide lots of add-on value without high costs. They really captured a big chunk of the market and moved it on.
  
  No Limits - A bit more basic - same cost - well run.
  
  Donington Park This is run by the circuit itself - Seen lots of big name riders there - Note how they manage noise restrictions - They also run evening sessions in the summer.
  
  Hottrax Another well run firm
  
  
  Cheers
  
  Mort

[Jorja]

Mort if you were here just 3 short years ago you would have been horrified at trackdays in NZ.
Go to an open day at pukekohe soon

[emaN]

jorja, sorry man, but that's no excuse.
sure, they were basic and sucked.
but surely we should all be aiming for the best poss outcome/result!?

i'm pretty much agreeing with most of what Mort's raised; especially the earlier starts & access to the garages!

[rwh]

• Pit Garages - I'm sorry but there must be a culture clash here or something.... All UK circuits with garages (which is most of them) leave them open for the riders to use. I've never seen or heard of a circuit charging for use of a garage. Its not added (as an extra cost ) to the riders or the TDO. Its part of the circuit facilities which are being hired.
  You say it costs $250 (MotoTT say its $100).... Thats as much as the track day itself !! There's no cost to the track in opening the garages and they dont make much money by charging for them (because nobody wants to pay for them). Supposing I'm doing a track day on my own (which I do)... the cost of a garage is unacceptable and frankly I'd look ridiculous sat in my own garage if I were to pay for one. I could (say) put a post on here to team up with others.... but why should I have to ? (Not many others did clearly)... I just think its petty and mean to have 100 riders standing around in the hot sun all day outside locked garages. I just think its all wrong.

I've only done one trackday (Suzuki one at Manfeild), and have had no part in organising one, but I figure this.

It presumably does cost something to open up a garage - there may well be some cleaning up to do after, and it includes power for tools and tyre warmers etc, right? Not a huge cost, but not nil.

And more significantly, it provides a way to let those with more disposable income subsidise those with less, without feeling ripped off - if you want a garage, and you can afford it, go for it. If not, well, you can still enjoy the day. If the price was just put up to cover it, you'd have fewer people turning up, and people annoyed because they paid just as much as everyone else, but there weren't any garages left.

Admittedly it would probably be better to adjust the price to the point that will fill the garages without anybody who wants one going without, but that would be tricky to calculate - especially with the low numbers of days being run, meaning nobody has a huge amount of experience. (ie I don't mean to knock any of the organisers, but they don't do it every weekend).

Richard

[Mort]

With respect Richard - I disagree on the garage issue.... If the circuits in the UK can do it then the circuits can do it here. I can only speak for my experience for Taupo - there are plenty of garages for all. The only cost I can think of is for some electric to run tyre warmers...

If we (the riders) dont speak up about this rip off then the current situation will continue...

Taupo is a first class circuit but in this respect the owners and TDO's are treating its paying customers like 2nd class citizens.

[enigma51]

I disagree on the garage issue.... If the circuits in the UK can do it then the circuits can do it here.

Last time i checked its still New Zealand in any case what you want to do with a garage? Scared of the sun? In true kiwi style toughen the fuck up.


You can put 6 bikes in a garage which means 200 / 6 = $33.33 not to bad me thinks.

[Mort]

Last time i checked its still New Zealand in any case what you want to do with a garage? Scared of the sun? In true kiwi style toughen the fuck up.


You can put 6 bikes in a garage which means 200 / 6 = $33.33 not to bad me thinks.

Well .... obviously I have no point at all.... just as long as it makes sense to you eh... All I have to do is round up 5 other people and still have to pay for a garage....

Actually no.... I'm completely wrong .... I actually prefer to stand like an idiot in the sun all day right next to garages built for track users .... just like you..... and just like you I should not want for anything better.

[Jorja]

Mort you have as much right to express your opinion as anyone else.
The track OWNERS at Taupo spent a lot of money very recently(less than 24 months ago) to build the facilities you are talking about. This includes the entire track. They expect a return on that investment
I suspect the tracks in the UK have been established for 30 years or more.Plenty of time to pay for the garages a hundred times over
I think it really is a case of culture shock.
When deciding what facilities to provide as part of the costs in a track day we (frostys crew) took the feedback from the majority of riders.MOST riders felt that they would rather have user pays for the garages.
Let those that want them pay for them was the feedback.
Again regarding track time .Except where lots of riders crashed most riders have had enough by 4 oclock ish even with a 10 oclock start.
The point we were making regarding 3 years ago is that track days in New Zealand are steadily being improved and refined,but it really is only 3 years since the open days at pukekohe were pretty much the normal way for track days in NZ.
Stick with it and watch us grow.

[emaN]

Last time i checked its still New Zealand in any case what you want to do with a garage? Scared of the sun? In true kiwi style toughen the fuck up.


You can put 6 bikes in a garage which means 200 / 6 = $33.33 not to bad me thinks.

is this what you sound like at work?
geez...we're all proper screwed then.

it's the principle of it all, or is that a wee bit beyond us...?

[emaN]

Mort you have as much right to express your opinion as anyone else....

Stick with it and watch us grow.

that's the attitude!

what d'ya think of this 'nigma?

[Mort]

thanks Jorja - I understand that the track day scene is evolving here... and for better or worse I am with you guys all the way - that is the reason for my post (for the benefit of those who think otherwise).

TDO's are a major source of income for tracks. I think there is a strong case for persuading the track owners to include the garages. As a further illustrating point, Donington Park recently (2006) replaced its entire pit complex at a cost of NZ$13m. Every pit garage was made available to every rider on every track day from day 1. So the fact that investment needs to be recouped by charging for garage use doesn't wash with me. The issue of charging for garages doesn't EVER arise.

Regarding track time, I think I've made my point earlier - personally I would like to see the whole day used efficiently. Riders can make their own choice as to how much track time they want thereafter.

The track scene in the UK exploded over the last 5 years. I think the major factors were:

1. Trackdays were made as safe as possible so novices would feel safe - this was done through strict rule enforcement and good track management (marshalls, recovery, ambulances, rolling marshalls, instructors on hand, even yellow bibs for those who wanted to be known as novice riders)
   
   
2. Training was one way in to doing track days for the average Joe. California superbike school introduced thousands to the track scene and also catered for racers of all standards (From Grand Prix down). Ron Haslam also runs a successful school at Donington. There are others but these are the best. On the average track day expert instructors were highly visible and approachable.
   
   
3. The circuits themselves believed there was a huge market out there and offered everthing they could to attract riders and TDO's.
   
   
4. The TDO's did not focus on expert riders exclusively but did accommodate their needs. Tyres, suspension set ups, guest racer tuition. Plenty of scope for 3rd party deals here.
   
   
5. I know the market is huge in the UK but there is no doubt the market was grown by firms like Focussed Events doing huge deals with tracks for dozens and dozens of track days. I remember thinking that this was a huge risk for them. Many TDOs had failed but they made a huge bold move and bought as much track time as they could. Every track day I went to with them was full. New riders came to the scene and experienced riders came much more often. The market grew and grew.
   
   In the summer its almost possible to ride a UK track any day of the week... This market did not exist before the TDO's grew a huge customer base. I know riders who no longer ride on the road because the track scene is so strong (I did the same for a year). Why bother with the road ?
   
   

I hope the NZ track scene continues to improve and attract more riders and the best TDOs prosper. I know there are special circumstances here but the future could be very bright for TDO's and track day enthusiasts alike.

Hampton Downs will be huge - you watch - time to make the right deals.

[DVS 69]

Firstly ive done a kiwibiker trackday (06) and i found it to run really really smoothly and loads of info / help if you ask. Ive got a little ZXR400 which i brought to have a try (dip my toe in) at F3. Now for me to go to a trackday either Manfield or Taupo ive got 6 hours of driving to get there and back for a start so thats about $150 of gas for the car then the trackday fee ($100-150) plus gas for me bike plus lunch plus the cost of accomidation. I know motorsport is expensive but there aint no way i could persue my passion for riding or racing if the costs went up even more. I do agree it kinda sux that it dont open till 10am and finishes at 4:30pm but i think thats me, Bear in mind im up at 5am and on the road so when i get there i kinda wanna fit as much riding in as humanly possible but thats normaly cos ive waited and waited for weeks for the day to arrive so im sooo keen to ride ride ride, but as my pace has got faster by 4:30pm iam starting to feel a little rooted anyway. I think the way things are is perfect........... We cant all be poms coming here changing our pounds for dollars (ching ching). Us NZers are at the other end of that senario. If things got too expensive it'd be trackdays for all the bloody imports we seem to open the door for in New Zealand. Im a proud KIWI and that bitching dont sit good with me. If its sooo much better in England piss off back there i reckon.

Id be mega pissed if trackdays went up in price as it would then be a hobbie/sport only for the people with the $$$$ (which dont make them any better riders)

[FROSTY:Me]

DVS -hey look I agree that winging for the sake of winging is a waste of space but some of the best improvements Ive made to the KB trackdays have been as a response to someone having the balls to bitch to me.