NZ Track days could be better

[El Dopa]

DVS -hey look I agree that winging for the sake of winging is a waste of space but some of the best improvements Ive made to the KB trackdays have been as a response to someone having the balls to bitch to me.

...then may I suggest (for the purposes of discussion only, dontyaknow) that if your March TD goes ahead, you consider reinstating 4 groups? Slow, Slow/Medium, Medium/Fast, Fast.

Just a thought. With the other changes you made, there should still be plenty of track time for all the sessions.

And my money will be in the bank next week.

[Tony.OK]

4 groups just doesn't allow enough value for money IMO.Less track time and longer waits in between.
To me 4 groups means more riders which should lower the price of a day.
Taupo in particular is plenty big enough for 40 bikes so there really isn't a need for 4 groups.

[kiwifruit]

4 groups just doesn't allow enough value for money IMO.Less track time and longer waits in between.
To me 4 groups means more riders which should lower the price of a day.
Taupo in particular is plenty big enough for 40 bikes so there really isn't a need for 4 groups.

4 groups, with motoTT, has come about to help keep the riders riding with others of a similar skill level

as people start doing more trackdays they get better, faster.
more and more "fast" riders means the fast group can get a bit prickly.... add motards to the mix, entering corners "very fast", something had to be done......
lots of complaints about people "going too fast" in the fast group has led to 2 "fast groups"....

as the trackdays become more and more popular you may start seeing 'advanced trackdays" and 'beginner / casual trackdays"

not everyone will be pleased all the time....
i wouldnt mind seeing a free for all trackday set up where you go out anytime and come in anytime, up to 50 bikes on the track etc.... lots of people wouldn't like that im sure

at teh end of the day rider saftey is most important, keeping everyone as safe as is possible in a potentially dangerous environment

i hope that makes some sense

[Sparky Bills]

Some interesting points.

All I can say really is that Wheelies are best done on the track and off the street, and to get yourself to a Honda Riders Club Trackday. Very well run, plus theres Aaron Slight and most importantly..... ME to help you out with riding tips etc
And the lunches you get are fantastic! Not just a sausage in bread either.

[DVS 69]

Yes them Honda trackdays are awesum ive done about 6 of them and it is good having aaron and others there, he helped me out an it was good as. Oh and the lunches ................. Bloody good dont think i even seen a sausage lol i went for the steak and chicken skewers lol ........... nice salads too. It really does feel quite like family where everyones looked after. Honda and Kiwibiker days are the best ive done, so it'l be intresting to see how this motott one is on the 26th as it'l be my 1st with them. Ive done a few Bike club trackdays that wernt quite as good. But hey i not complain as track time is track time and its the most fun ya can have with pants on lol. I love being around like minded people and generaly everybody is approachable and friendly at every trackday ive been to, its kinda like my new addiction

[Mort]

I think the 3 x 20 minute session format is best.

1. The sessions are just long enough - I find 25 mins too long
2. with the 4 x 20 format there's too much sitting around between track sessions (1 hour if things are going well - longer if they don't) Lunchtimes seem to last for ever...
3. with the late starts and early finish 5 sessions is a maximum.... if there is a problem on track 4 sessions is probable.... thats not a lot of track time...
4. I don't think there's a need for 4 groups on a skills basis. 3 Groups works fine. The only issue (I suggest) is with large numbers of Super Motards. I would restrict them to the fast group unless there is a convincing reason for a rider to be in a slower group. For a novice rider they can be an un-nerving distraction...

BTW..As a response to DVS69 - I opened this thread to open a debate on improving track days for all... I think your comments towards me personally show more about your mentality than they show about me (of which you know nothing) .

If you want to start a pomme bashing thread, go ahead... I'll even post there myself but I doubt we'd agree on anything....



.

[xvfrona]

I'm an ex pat brit, moved to NZ 3 years ago.
There appears to be a malaise running through this thread between Kiwis and ex pats/ NZ track days and UK track days even NZ/UK. Yes the track days in the UK are better run and better attended than here (not personal knowledge - but through friends) but so they shud b.
Motorcycling in the UK is no longer a cheaper alternative to owning a car, it's a hobby, a pastime, most bikes in the uk are purchased with 'disposable income' and only ridden at week ends and on track days. I couldn't afford track days in the uk, but I can here ( even though the NZ wage is, in real term well below that of the UK, even taking into account todays exchange rate).
Pit garages, sod it, you want one pay for one, $100 for the day only equates to 39.98GBD (at todays rate - but the dollar is strong) and is a bargain. If you don't want to pay for the garage buy an eazi up and a generator. It ain't rocket science.
I for one feel absolutely shagged after a track day (and a race day), but then I'm nearly 50, smoke and drink too much (it also takes me two hours to get to either Manfield or Taupo - and the same home again). VMCC run very well organised race days PCMCC not so organised. Manfield run 20 min sessions btn 9 a.m and 4 p.m most Fridays for competition cars and bikes. I have been to a couple and enjoyed and benefited from them. I have also been to 'properly organised' track days. They may have been basic, with a lack of marshalls (and I binned a bike on unflagged oil!!!!!) but are realistically, good value for money. Yes, you might be able to convince the organisers to improve the facilities on the day, yes the price will increase but the attendance numbers will do the opposite. this will do two things. It will give those with the funds extra track time, in the short term (yippee for them), but ultimately lead to the demise of the track day as financially unviable for the organisers and why should they, as a business, loose money to satisfy our need for speed/fun or whatever floats your boat. As a club 'racer' the costs are getting worse (at the moment I can convince she who must be obeyed they are justifiable!!!!). This means that my only two wheeled fun in future is likely to be track days. I for one would not like to see these extra 'benefits' introduced to curtail my two wheeled pleasure any further as I may be forced to return to the road which is a very dangerous place to be in this 'I didn't see him officer' world.
A good discussion thread, producing valid points, interspersed with 'your only a brit toughen up' attitude. Better we work together folks to improve things slowly, safely and surely, than to rock the boat and then watch it sink from view completely, what we have is better than nothing,which is what we will have if we are not VERY CAREFUL. (Oh and I don't care if you agree or disagree, this is my point of view, to which I am entitled). Thanks for listening, ride ever day as if it is your last because one day it will be!

[xvfrona]

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[DVS 69]

Mort. Hey i do get what your getting at but im thinking of the cost, i know of lots of people who wouldnt go if costs went up too much more. As for myself maybe i could be a lil mental but so what its a straight world without twistys lol.

[Mort]

$200 For a garage (which is part of the facilities of the track) is outrageous. Its twice the price of the track day itself from which the TDO takes a profit. Why is it that people here accept this when the rest of the world get garages as part of the track facilities ??? Remember the garages are built and cost nothing to open them up.

You are being ripped off !!!

This should be challenged by the customers and the track day organisers. I think its piss poor that so many here think that what is going on is acceptable.

Given the circumstances, of the rip off track charges for garages and apparent malaise amongst riders to speak up, I think there is room for something which may suit all.

The last track day I saw there was only one garage in use by 4 riders who (presumably) paid $200 between them for the use of the garage. So the track made $200 from its garage hire.

If the TDO offers an optional additional charge to riders for garage use they could cut a deal with the track to rent out more garages (preferably at a lower rate than $200) and fit say 6 riders per garage in. The track would make more money from its garages, The TDO makes a few bucks, the riders who want garage space would get garage space at a lower rate and riders who don’t want garage space can do their own thing.

Example :

• 100 riders on a track day.
• TDO negotiates a rate and the track allows garage rental at say $100 per garage.
• Say 30 riders want garages and pay $20 per rider (pre booked or otherwise)
• Track makes $500 for its garages (more than they do at the moment - so they are happy)
• TDO makes $100 for the effort of organising (more profit for a little effort)
• 70 riders are unaffected and are happy
• 29 riders are happy in their garages
• one miserable Pomme grudgingly accepts and shuts the fuck up about garages. Its still a rip off but its a compromise.

Perhaps Frosty or Jorja could comment on the feasability this...


On the matter of track time – If the track is available from 9 – 4:30 then that is the time the track should be open. (3 x 20 minutes is best)...I live almost 5 hours from Taupo and last time I went I arrived at 10:30.. I missed track time but I didn’t expect the entire event to wait until I got there. The way to go for me is to travel the night before and stay over (Camping is Cheap !!!). Where you live and how far away from the track you are is NOT a matter for the event, the TDO or other riders.

Track time is what you pay for. Track time is everything.

[El Dopa]

4 groups just doesn't allow enough value for money IMO.Less track time and longer waits in between.
To me 4 groups means more riders which should lower the price of a day.
Taupo in particular is plenty big enough for 40 bikes so there really isn't a need for 4 groups.

Well, last Frosty Trackday, he had it organised so that the first riders of the 'next' group were heading onto the track as the last riders of the 'previous' session were coming in. So the waiting-in-between time was cut sustantially. There were a few other changes as well.

These changes meant that there were five sessions per group instead of the four at the previous trackday. I was so knackered I didn't go out the 5th time.

The medium group (of fast/medium/slow) was just a little bit too crowded for my tastes - it picked up riders that were slightly too fast for the slow group, and riders that were slightly too slow for the fast group. It was twice the size of the other two groups.

Just thinking out loud, really.

[FROSTY:Me]

Im going to be watching that a bit more closely ED--moving folk up and down to suit their speed.
The way i see it if someone is out in the med group and lapping in fast group times they should be in the fast group

[Beemer]

Mort, regardless of your nationality, you ARE coming across as a whinger I'm afraid. The people who run track days in NZ are not doing it as a business, many are run by clubs as a way of raising funds for their members. Our club runs one (two a year if we are lucky and can get the track for a second day) and believe me, a shit load of work is put in by many people long before the day, on the day and afterwards. We usually have a paid marshaling crew and also an ambulance - which (thankfully) usually sits there all day without being used. A second ambulance would be a huge waste of resources considering Feilding probably doesn't have a lot to spare in the first place.

Prior to the day we have to organise what day suits the majority of people and doesn't clash with other events so we get a good turn out. We then have to book the track (not an easy task as it is used by many other groups all year round), book the marshals, the ambulance, arrange publicity, organise catering, etc. Oh, and pay deposits, before we have taken a single dollar. And if it rains, we could end up making a loss if few people turn up.

Club members have to be at the track about 7am to open it, make sure the track has been swept (for that read: sweep the track), the caterers have arrived, set up scrutineering, etc. That does NOT happen in five minutes, so there is no way we could start the sessions much earlier than we do.

We run four sessions - slow, medium, fast, race - because that is what people want. All sessions are full, so we're obviously doing something right. We try and have the next group lined up ready to go as soon as the last rider from the previous group comes in, and we also try and clear any accidents or broken down bikes off the track as soon as possible.

We used to run longer sessions but found that was when people crashed. They got tired as the day wore on and lost concentration - and that happened in all sessions. So now we stick to (I think) 15 minutes and people at our last track day said that was a good length. Of course the faster riders get in more laps, so it all balances out.

As our members have been doing all the hard work during the day, we close the track to the public at about 4pm to allow those members time on the track. Wow, a whole half hour or so when you guys have had all day. We have to clear the track by a certain time - probably due to noise restrictions (which are applicable to the bikes during the track day anyway), but also so the track owners can inspect it and lock up after we leave.

Other track day organisers may do things differently but in our case we are all volunteers. We don't get paid for our work but I still think we do a great job most of the time.

We'd love to have instructors but that would add to the cost. Sure, some racers turn up to track days and help out other riders but that isn't their job and they can't always be there.

Every English person we have spoken to about track days in the UK has said that they are bloody expensive, there are heaps of riders there and they don't get much track time. That is their opinion, just as you have yours. There are probably some track days that are better than others and they may not have experienced a good one.

We get a lot of good reports from riders who attend our track days and for $40 I don't think any of them can complain. We try and run a well organised and safe day for all and I think we are doing that on the whole. It sounds like the track days Frosty organises are run along similar lines, so your criticism, while valid in some instances, is a little misguided. You have to remember mate, this is New Zealand, not Britain, and if you think we're doing such a bad job, either put your hand up and work to help make them better - or piss off back to where you came from.

[chris]

Mort, regardless of your nationality, you ARE coming across as a whinger I'm afraid. The people who run track days in NZ are not doing it as a business, many are run by clubs as a way of raising funds for their members. Our club runs one (two a year if we are lucky and can get the track for a second day) and believe me, a shit load of work is put in by many people long before the day, on the day and afterwards. We usually have a paid marshaling crew and also an ambulance - which (thankfully) usually sits there all day without being used. A second ambulance would be a huge waste of resources considering Feilding probably doesn't have a lot to spare in the first place.

Prior to the day we have to organise what day suits the majority of people and doesn't clash with other events so we get a good turn out. We then have to book the track (not an easy task as it is used by many other groups all year round), book the marshals, the ambulance, arrange publicity, organise catering, etc. Oh, and pay deposits, before we have taken a single dollar. And if it rains, we could end up making a loss if few people turn up.

Club members have to be at the track about 7am to open it, make sure the track has been swept (for that read: sweep the track), the caterers have arrived, set up scrutineering, etc. That does NOT happen in five minutes, so there is no way we could start the sessions much earlier than we do.

We run four sessions - slow, medium, fast, race - because that is what people want. All sessions are full, so we're obviously doing something right. We try and have the next group lined up ready to go as soon as the last rider from the previous group comes in, and we also try and clear any accidents or broken down bikes off the track as soon as possible.

We used to run longer sessions but found that was when people crashed. They got tired as the day wore on and lost concentration - and that happened in all sessions. So now we stick to (I think) 15 minutes and people at our last track day said that was a good length. Of course the faster riders get in more laps, so it all balances out.

As our members have been doing all the hard work during the day, we close the track to the public at about 4pm to allow those members time on the track. Wow, a whole half hour or so when you guys have had all day. We have to clear the track by a certain time - probably due to noise restrictions (which are applicable to the bikes during the track day anyway), but also so the track owners can inspect it and lock up after we leave.

Other track day organisers may do things differently but in our case we are all volunteers. We don't get paid for our work but I still think we do a great job most of the time.

We'd love to have instructors but that would add to the cost. Sure, some racers turn up to track days and help out other riders but that isn't their job and they can't always be there.

Every English person we have spoken to about track days in the UK has said that they are bloody expensive, there are heaps of riders there and they don't get much track time. That is their opinion, just as you have yours. There are probably some track days that are better than others and they may not have experienced a good one.

We get a lot of good reports from riders who attend our track days and for $40 I don't think any of them can complain. We try and run a well organised and safe day for all and I think we are doing that on the whole. It sounds like the track days Frosty organises are run along similar lines, so your criticism, while valid in some instances, is a little misguided. You have to remember mate, this is New Zealand, not Britain, and if you think we're doing such a bad job, either put your hand up and work to help make them better - or piss off back to where you came from.

Nicely put. Pretty much mirrors how I was going to respond, with the exception that the only track day 'employee' at the Suzuki track days that gets to put some laps in is Todd!

[Mort]

You have to remember mate, this is New Zealand, not Britain, and if you think we're doing such a bad job, either put your hand up and work to help make them better - or piss off back to where you came from.

Beemer - I think that is bloody unfair. At no time did I ever criticise any TDO or say a bad job was being done.. (I don't even know who you are or what track you are talking about !!!) By raising these points I am "putting my hand up" and I would do whatever possible to improve the track day scene in NZ.

To quote myself in the first post of this thread :

I think there is a need to open up a few points on how track days are run here. Before I begin I want to say that my 3 days have been very enjoyable and I dont want to come across as some sort of whinging pomme... The points below dont stop me from riding, I just raise them because I think things could improve. I also recognise that there is a much smaller market here and there are cost implications (which I will cover below) ...

Anyway...I love track days and I think I can add something or stimulate some positive debate... simple as that.

I raised a number of points, a few of which I have conceded and agreed with after responses from various people. There are a few points remaining about track time and garages which I think could be improved upon. By raising those points I am expressing a view (based on experience). I am not having a go at anyone. I am trying to encourage a minor change that is all.

If you can't appreciate the spirit in which I raised these points then thats your problem mate.... At least I can say I have put my hand up and spoken with respect to anyone prepared to talk about the NZ trackday scene..

Mort