Proposed tax cuts

[cowpoos]

How would that work bro ? Would it be so high that the poor could not pay it and be shot ?

Would it be so low that there would not be enough $$ to pay for health, police, infrastructure etc ?

Anyways, if you adjusted them proportionally, you could effectively give everyone $15 each. But, with all the benefits the 'poor' can receive, it seems the 'middle class' are proportionally more 'out of pocket' than historically.

it wouldn't mean raising it at all...lowering will put more money in circulation...sure...short term it will raise inflation to a degree...but soon people will learn to spend it as if they never had it...but it will go somewhere...the more dollars in circulation the more times each of those dollars gets taxed at some point in every circulation...money just won't disapear into the richest peoples pockets...also...the richest people are a minority...making them pay extra tax in the grand scheme of things is nothing...just a time amount of money...but these are the poeple with capital to start new ventures and create jobs,enterprise...make out internal economy stronger...so why should we penilise these people for being the lynich pins in society...dairy farming is currently being raped by all sectors for money...they are out current backbone for our economy...and they will be for years to come...because unlike IT and manifacturing,etc...they can't just pack up and piss off over to china to cut costs,so they can make a fair income for the work they put in...like alot of NZ bussiness's do so regularly...

I always believed in 'if you are running short of means...better them or reduce the means in which you live'...do not ever whinge about it and expect someone else to do it for you...to many NZders make excuse's...not enough of us doing something about our situation...shit if we had half the mental ambition of aussie ot the USA...we would be a much stronger nation in ever sence of the word...

[paturoa]

The middle class are paying the tax that the 'rich' were paying ten years ago, and lower class paying middle class tax of ten years ago.

No, totaly wrong, follow this link:

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2...xpayers/01.htm

- the first 47% of people pay only 9% of the income tax.

- the next 33% of people contribute 28% (between 20k and 50K = middle class??? NOT)

- and the remaining (top) 20% pay 63%

Now all of this is before ACC and GST and other "levies" etc etc etc.

Here is some more interesting stuff too

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyre...007tables1.pdf

Rescaling the bands doesn't help the poor. it is all about the poor.

Somehow this has become an illogical / twisted conversation, where being poor is not about earning more, it has become bullshite about being taxed less WTF????. See above, the "poor" currenlty pay SFA tax, so taxing them less wont make them "richer".

Creating an underlying structure with incentive based principals to earn more would be good a start.

Check out the rebate structure for Working For Families. Why would anyone seek out a higher paying job?

Damn right. I never considered myself poor untill I started earning more than $70,000 pa. Now I'm on considerably more than that and see people on the average wage with much more discretionary spending. The low paid are the new rich.

Agree, but clarification is .. Low paid by their "employeer" and highly paid by the higher income earners.

Unless my maths is wrong, does it not help every tax payer if it is the bottom band that is moved, and caps the benifit for every one on the higher bands?

edit: Obviously I am assuming the band is moved upward or the tax rate reduced.

Yes, thats how they get the $15 thing, and at the same time reduce the 9% paid by the first 47%.

adjust them in what way?? they havn't moved for years...but what is the point of that?? are the people that are rich no deserving of keeping just as much money as those that are poor??? I sure as hell don't understand why it is the more sucsessful a person is the more they have to contribute to society...they don't get any more voting rights?? or privilages?? same goes with lower income people?? why should they pay less tax?? why can't we just have a flat tax rate?? why is it the family's in any income braket deserve this working for families rubbish??? shit...I wanna go hire purchase a new jet ski too!!! so why can't the government pay me some money for being hopeless with what I already earn in order to pay for my new jetski???

I doubt if there is no such thing as a fair and workable income tax system in our "modern" democracy as we all think differently about what fair is.

I'd wager a fairly meagre slice of my after tax income that if there was ALSO a real incentive to earn more without oppressive tax, then that would help a lot too.

Redistributing wealth through a tax system is an extremely blunt and inefficient instrument.

More than that - I doesn't work, has never worked, and will never work.

For me there is a clear and obvious trend here - as the income redistribution has increased, all of the "social measures" that are used to justify this in the first place get worse.

[cowpoos]

Depends. Considering a lot of the richer people don't really earn their money by working. Usually they're managerial types that force people around and hardly lift a finger themselves, or they're the investors that move their money to where it can make them more money, and they usually get a money manager to do it for them.

People with more money have the money to make life more comfortable. Poorer people don't so much. A flat tax rate could starve lower income families whereas a richer family may not be able to buy their daughter the higher spec mercedes she wanted for her 16th birthday.

As for voting, if some people were to have a vote that meant more than others, who'd decide who does have more voting power? I don't want the types that want to bring down minimum wage get more say, nor do I want to hug a tree every day.

Disclaimer: this is a generalisation. Of course there are exceptions like with everything.

Richest 2 percent own half the worlds wealth

Sorry dude...but your veiw and geralisation on how rich people earn there money just says that you are very young and watch to much teli....the reality is sooooo much different you would be bloody amazed....I know mutli multi millionares...and they are the hardest working people I know...there family's regulall do with out there presence as a sacrifice to their sucsess's...

money is rarely just handed to people these days...there arincredible amount of wealthy self made people in this country...and good on them.. for being entripreurial or have for-sight...know how...connections...and savy for getting to where they are...and I am jealous!

I come from a very very low income family...and know only too well the results of lack of money on out house hold at xmas and B days...or the lack of the events...growing up with 7 sibblings in a family on the dole...we had next to know money...but hey...at the end of the day...I have no more no less oppertunities in live to anyone...granted the lack of $$$ may make them take a bit longer...they are no excuse...so don't give me the low income speel!! it doesn't wash with me..it shouldn't be and excuse for anyone!!!

[u4ea]

The low paid are the new rich.

I wish!! Payed 100% ACC receive 80%..can earn $60 pw ,a beneficiary can earn $80..after paying secondary tax on $60 and petrol to get there I really dont think its worth the pain killers!!!I also didn't qualify for full family assistance and now that my boy has left school I get....................0.Dont get me wrong,I loved working but with constant pain it aint as easy as it was to get a full time job.Am in the process of retraining.When my arse is booted off ACC I am worried I'll have to sell my house if I havn't got a job by then , I wont be able to afford to maintain a home.

[homer]

yeah
ACC is bullshit you get 80 % of a wage ...then they do some more calculation of a few weeks wages average that
then you get to pay tax on 80 % so you get a pay of 60% of your wages

I say fuck the acc
and personally everyone getting any from it
fucken milk it

[u4ea]

yeah
ACC is bullshit you get 80 % of a wage ...then they do some more calculation of a few weeks wages average that
then you get to pay tax on 80 % so you get a pay of 60% of your wages

I say fuck the acc
and personally everyone getting any from it
fucken milk it

Admittedly Iv'e probably cost them a bomb after 3 operations although I have paid tax since I was 15 and vehicle registration..milking them ain't an option for me..I would rather be working for some real coin thanx!!!!and $15 pw won't make much of a difference in my house as I pay gst twice on any ACC related travel..the more they give the more they take away..

[bane]

here's my (imho) fair and equitable tax system (theory, take as much tax as required to support essential infrastructure and services) - dont treat the taxpayer as a cash cow.

first $20k tax free (therefore the least fortunate people in society pay no tax)

$20K+, flat tax rate of 20% (no secondary rate bullshit)
Business taxrate 20%

move GST up from 12.5 to 17.5%


GST is a very efficient tax, hard to avoid (unlike income tax for those in the know), and as it's a consumption tax, is actually fair (the more you consume, the more you pay).


perhaps for many, it's lucky I'll never be in a position to make it a reality...

[Deano]

Well I started out poor, bettered myself and now have a job with a decent level of responsibility and accountability, yet I don't believe I am better off than someone earning significantly less.

People on high incomes receive pay increases based on a %, which equates to a shitload more money than the % of a low wage.

The 'rich' get richer disproportionally by the %, the Govt dishes handouts to the 'poor', and the 'middle class' wear the brunt. IMHO.

Poos - how would a flat tax rate work ? Other than the above idea of GST increase, which effectively taxes people who can afford to buy more stuff anyway.

[cowpoos]

here's my (imho) fair and equitable tax system (theory, take as much tax as required to support essential infrastructure and services) - dont treat the taxpayer as a cash cow.

first $20k tax free (therefore the least fortunate people in society pay no tax)

$20K+, flat tax rate of 20% (no secondary rate bullshit)
Business taxrate 20%

move GST up from 12.5 to 17.5%


GST is a very efficient tax, hard to avoid (unlike income tax for those in the know), and as it's a consumption tax, is actually fair (the more you consume, the more you pay).


perhaps for many, it's lucky I'll never be in a position to make it a reality...

lol....you self employed by chance???

[cowpoos]

Well I started out poor, bettered myself and now have a job with a decent level of responsibility and accountability, yet I don't believe I am better off than someone earning significantly less.

People on high incomes receive pay increases based on a %, which equates to a shitload more money than the % of a low wage.

The 'rich' get richer disproportionally by the %, the Govt dishes handouts to the 'poor', and the 'middle class' wear the brunt. IMHO.

Poos - how would a flat tax rate work ? Other than the above idea of GST increase, which effectively taxes people who can afford to buy more stuff anyway.

how is it your not better off than someone earning signifacantly less??

[Robert Taylor]

Depends. Considering a lot of the richer people don't really earn their money by working. Usually they're managerial types that force people around and hardly lift a finger themselves, or they're the investors that move their money to where it can make them more money, and they usually get a money manager to do it for them.

People with more money have the money to make life more comfortable. Poorer people don't so much. A flat tax rate could starve lower income families whereas a richer family may not be able to buy their daughter the higher spec mercedes she wanted for her 16th birthday.

As for voting, if some people were to have a vote that meant more than others, who'd decide who does have more voting power? I don't want the types that want to bring down minimum wage get more say, nor do I want to hug a tree every day.

Disclaimer: this is a generalisation. Of course there are exceptions like with everything.

Richest 2 percent own half the worlds wealth

Either way, its middle NZ being screwed....

[Finn]

Well I started out poor, bettered myself and now have a job with a decent level of responsibility and accountability, yet I don't believe I am better off than someone earning significantly less.

People on high incomes receive pay increases based on a %, which equates to a shitload more money than the % of a low wage.

The 'rich' get richer disproportionally by the %, the Govt dishes handouts to the 'poor', and the 'middle class' wear the brunt. IMHO.

Poos - how would a flat tax rate work ? Other than the above idea of GST increase, which effectively taxes people who can afford to buy more stuff anyway.

You're partly right Deano. The problem with NZ is legislation doesn't support hard work. The rich will always win. They don't pay much tax. This is fine as they create wealth in many other ways (the simpletons here won't understand that). The bigger problem is a shrinking of middle class being replaced by very poor people which is bringing this country down further into the shit. Most wealthy people and big business has had enough and has pulled ALL their investment out of NZ. Remember Fisher & Paykel. In 2008, they won't have an operation in NZ. Why? It's simple really.

NZ has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

h

$20K+, flat tax rate of 20% (no secondary rate bullshit)
Business taxrate 20%

move GST up from 12.5 to 17.5%

ferk that I couldn't afford to live then in effect thats 37.7% in tax over one third... oh wait... ummmm I already pay that... no wonder I can't afford to live

[AllanB]

Mr Cullen (the right horrible) announced in a budget a year or so ago that the tax rates will become inflation adjusted after 2008 or 09 (can't remember which).

I find it amusing how a tax rise or new tax can be added in a month or two but a reduction takes a couple of years. But then you need to save up the taxes paid in between so you can bribe the voters for your next election.

Easy to find $190,000,000 for a bloody rugby game apparently.

[homer]

here's my (imho) fair and equitable tax system (theory, take as much tax as required to support essential infrastructure and services) - dont treat the taxpayer as a cash cow.

first $20k tax free (therefore the least fortunate people in society pay no tax)

$20K+, flat tax rate of 20% (no secondary rate bullshit)
Business taxrate 20%

move GST up from 12.5 to 17.5%


GST is a very efficient tax, hard to avoid (unlike income tax for those in the know), and as it's a consumption tax, is actually fair (the more you consume, the more you pay).


perhaps for many, it's lucky I'll never be in a position to make it a reality...

Think youd be better to read what i posted
Far more simple