Damping Technology

[Shaun]

And you know VERY VERY VERY well that the steering damper fitted was the WRONG WRONG WRONG one for the bike and therefore had clearance issues lock to lock and the fitting geometry and therefore effective damping force was incorrect. Your supplier / purchaser and fitter at the other end of the world should have been aware of same and I personally pointed out as much to you.
If you are going to play games like this it wont be too long before you need to seek legal counsel to defend yourself in a libel suit. As there will be residual anaesthetic in your system from your horrific ordeal I will overlook this very mischievous outburst.

YES, (1) was fitted badly!!!!! FACT!!!!!!!

The second one was fitted professionally by a Trained mechanic!

The other 2 that have let me down, that you know about! were not fitted badly, they just BROKE-FACT!



Robert, Legal councel, ba hahahahaha

[Robert Taylor]

YES, (1) was fitted badly!!!!! FACT!!!!!!!

The second one was fitted professionally by a Trained mechanic!

The other 2 that have let me down, that you know about! were not fitted badly, they just BROKE-FACT!



Robert, Legal councel, ba hahahahaha

They were incorrect and you know it and strange how it has happened with yourself who has also been the fitter.

[Shaun]

They were incorrect and you know it and strange how it has happened with yourself who has also been the fitter.

But you sold me those 2 Rob, guess I must have forgotten, that when you sold them to me, you also told me they were the incorrect ones- dam, I can be silly, Must be the residue in my system you keep refering to you, speaking of Liabillity!

I guess I must be a crap fitter then, as every bike I have ever built, has fallen apart eh- sorry guys, and I must have just fluke built every motorcycle I have ever won a race on in New Zealand over a few years

But as I have said on nearly every post on this web site about you and your work, Brilliant, keep it up mate, you are doing yourself proud.

[Robert Taylor]

But you sold me those 2 Rob, guess I must have forgotten, that when you sold them to me, you also told me they were the incorrect ones- dam, I can be silly, Must be the residue in my system you keep refering to you, speaking of Liabillity!

I guess I must be a crap fitter then, as every bike I have ever built, has fallen apart eh- sorry guys, and I must have just fluke built every motorcycle I have ever won a race on in New Zealand over a few years

But as I have said on nearly every post on this web site about you and your work, Brilliant, keep it up mate, you are doing yourself proud.

Yes and given that the fitment on the very latest models is much more critical I recognised the absolute need that the absolute correct dedicated kit must be fitted, despite higher price. That some other end users overseas have chosen to ignore same ( or have gone for a cheaper price as so often occurs here in NZ ) is not a finger that can be pointed at me, I have my house in order and YOU KNOW IT.

I made no reference whatsoever to the subject of building bikes but as you mention it yes you have built some very fast bikes that have won races and championships.

Now go and spend some time with your family instead of trying to ''divide and conquer''

[Shaun]

OK, off to the beach now

[TDC]

I'm personally very interested in the electronically mapped shock that WP are working on, they have a gps system which tells a control unit exactly where the bike is on the track and then via an electronic control valve adjusts the shock accordingly.

I'm not so convinced at this approach.

I feel the real trick would be a shock based on one of the uber trick fluids that change viscosity with electric current and some very fast speed sensing equipment, now that could be fun a shock thats pretty much one size fits all with any response curve you want uploaded via laptop or some such device.

I think the GPS version is like saying we can't get a wide range of wheel control with the existing design, rather than fix it lets just make sure we have the right set or most advantages set of compromises available for each corner.... Just don't really sound like progress to me, but hi tec (read overly complicated) band aid.

If the team you were fighting in a title had this device a radio jammer could be interesting....

[Ocean1]

I feel the real trick would be a shock based on one of the uber trick fluids that change viscosity with electric current and some very fast speed sensing equipment, now that could be fun a shock thats pretty much one size fits all with any response curve you want uploaded via laptop or some such device.
.

Bit early yet I understand. I know a guy who does some very advanced computational fluid dynamics work. Ask him about Electro-Rheostatic fluids and you'd think someone had shat in his Milo. The variables are very difficult to manage, and I mean an order of magnitude more so than "simple" CFD models.

Not only are the numbers tricky, I believe the fluids available pose limitations that'd be hard to live with in a high performance shock. Some ER fluids have response times in the order of 100 msec, which still ain't that quick in terms of a shock movement, and thay need lotsa volts. Not sure how they react to variations in temp either.

Blue sky budget might focus on one of these:

Artificial muscle has been fabricated from naturally occuring long chain pro-teins. Two proteins (actin and myosin), found in biological muscle tissue have been extracted from shellfish and used to produce gels. In muscle tissue, actin and myosin fibers interlock to form a kind of biochemicalratchet. Energy-rich ATP molecules power the attachment, bending, and straightening of themyosin strands. Researchers have extracted actin and myosin proteins from scallops, and used chemical reactions to linkthe molecules together into polymeric gels. When a microscopic piece of actin gel was placed against themyosin gel and immersed in an ATP solution the actin gel sprang into motion at about one thousandth of a millimeter per second.


Carbon nanotubes are very thin and long tubes. Their diameter is only a few nanometers, about the diameter of typical molecules, and they can be up to millimeters in length. Carbon nanotubes increase their length when electrons are pushed into the carbon structure. This effect can be used for electromechanical actuators. The relatively large length change and the high elastic modulus lead to very large forces forcarbon nanotube actuators. A sandwich configuration has been fabricated to demonstrate the use of carbon nanotubes as actuators. The polarization of the sandwich in this actuator can be accomplished using relatively small voltages.

In the meantime, I don't really have a problem with variable porting to control flow. I wonder how one of the faster digital hydraulic flow controls would work for a primary damping valve. With, as you say, a bunch of transducers keeping tabs on related variables, and a clever wee processor in between...

[Robert Taylor]

Bit early yet I understand. I know a guy who does some very advanced computational fluid dynamics work. Ask him about Electro-Rheostatic fluids and you'd think someone had shat in his Milo. The variables are very difficult to manage, and I mean an order of magnitude more so than "simple" CFD models.

Not only are the numbers tricky, I believe the fluids available pose limitations that'd be hard to live with in a high performance shock. Some ER fluids have response times in the order of 100 msec, which still ain't that quick in terms of a shock movement, and thay need lotsa volts. Not sure how they react to variations in temp either.

Blue sky budget might focus on one of these:

Artificial muscle has been fabricated from naturally occuring long chain pro-teins. Two proteins (actin and myosin), found in biological muscle tissue have been extracted from shellfish and used to produce gels. In muscle tissue, actin and myosin fibers interlock to form a kind of biochemicalratchet. Energy-rich ATP molecules power the attachment, bending, and straightening of themyosin strands. Researchers have extracted actin and myosin proteins from scallops, and used chemical reactions to linkthe molecules together into polymeric gels. When a microscopic piece of actin gel was placed against themyosin gel and immersed in an ATP solution the actin gel sprang into motion at about one thousandth of a millimeter per second.


Carbon nanotubes are very thin and long tubes. Their diameter is only a few nanometers, about the diameter of typical molecules, and they can be up to millimeters in length. Carbon nanotubes increase their length when electrons are pushed into the carbon structure. This effect can be used for electromechanical actuators. The relatively large length change and the high elastic modulus lead to very large forces forcarbon nanotube actuators. A sandwich configuration has been fabricated to demonstrate the use of carbon nanotubes as actuators. The polarization of the sandwich in this actuator can be accomplished using relatively small voltages.

In the meantime, I don't really have a problem with variable porting to control flow. I wonder how one of the faster digital hydraulic flow controls would work for a primary damping valve. With, as you say, a bunch of transducers keeping tabs on related variables, and a clever wee processor in between...

Stay posted, Ohlins have been working with shock electronics for some considerable time.

[boomer]

Stay posted, Ohlins have been working with shock electronics for some considerable time.

I thought that was the Germans?

[DEATH_INC.]

I'm not so convinced at this approach.

I feel the real trick would be a shock based on one of the uber trick fluids that change viscosity with electric current and some very fast speed sensing equipment, now that could be fun a shock thats pretty much one size fits all with any response curve you want uploaded via laptop or some such device.

I guess the problem with this is as mentioned earlier in this thread, a thicker fluid will really only affect the lower piston speeds, till the shims start to open.....so the changes in damping will be limited for the extra amount of complication....

[HDTboy]

Death,

If you were running a fliud with which you could quickly vary the viscosity, why would you need shims?

If you wanted to keep the damper as simple as possible, you could run a piston with a number of holes, and use the electronics to vary the damping characteristics.
These could then be based on sensor inputs such as swingarm angle, swingarm speed, cycle speed, throttle position, engine revs.
Going a level deeper, one could build a fuzzy logic into the system, so that if it recognised a pattern of a particular movement, followed by another particular movement (Eg: turn 1 at Pukekohe), it could then pre-empt the second movement, and have the damping ready for the bump before it hits. Or another example would be exiting the hairpin on a superbike. Every time when a particular reading of throttle position and revs are met, it could theoretically damp to compensate.

[Robert Taylor]

Death,

If you were running a fliud with which you could quickly vary the viscosity, why would you need shims?

If you wanted to keep the damper as simple as possible, you could run a piston with a number of holes, and use the electronics to vary the damping characteristics.
These could then be based on sensor inputs such as swingarm angle, swingarm speed, cycle speed, throttle position, engine revs.
Going a level deeper, one could build a fuzzy logic into the system, so that if it recognised a pattern of a particular movement, followed by another particular movement (Eg: turn 1 at Pukekohe), it could then pre-empt the second movement, and have the damping ready for the bump before it hits. Or another example would be exiting the hairpin on a superbike. Every time when a particular reading of throttle position and revs are met, it could theoretically damp to compensate.

This is probably an oversimplistic quickfire explanation, but,

Especially small damping holes are progressive by nature.

Whereas bending shim stacks arranged over suitably large ports have some reactance to pressure differential and will respond with more or less lift accordingly, varying the flow area. Therefore they modulate flow better with less progressivity. And there is much more flexibility to tune their characteristic, especially if you have a large number of shims.

[Robert Taylor]

I thought that was the Germans?

You know the score Boomer, Great Britain 2, Germany 0. The Swedes are supplying electronics to the Germans but yes there are also some German companies developing this technology.

[Pixie]

If you have a fast enough actuator you can do away with fluidic damping all together.
Bose are on the way to developing a workable system for automotive use:

http://www.bose.com/controller?event...components.jsp

An interesting development is that the Bose system is regenerative and feeds power back into the cars electrical system,thus reducing the net power requirements of the suspension (ultimately the power comes from the engine,regardless,but the regeneration improves efficiency).
Add a teraHertz radar system to measure the road surface before the front tyre arrives at the bumps,and you might be approaching perfection in suspension performance.

(yes they are the ones that make the sound systems)

[cowpoos]

You know the score Boomer, Great Britain 2, Germany 0. The Swedes are supplying electronics to the Germans but yes there are also some German companies developing this technology.

germany should have changed coach!!