Whats the Guts on Power comander thingy

[Firefight]

Okay all you no all techno types, whats the go,

When I got my Micron can, I was told I need a Power comander thingy which was going to cost more than the can :disapint: , well being a Scot and a bit of a tight prick I thought I would try with out it , So now I have done about 4k with this new can and my fuel consumption is pretty much the same as it was b4 , The bike has more mid range perforamce sounds great and is not burning anymore fuel ! .

Being a guy I only read a few lines of the article on power cmder thingys in the bike trader a couple of months ago, it was two long winded, so now I want to know why was I supposed to fit the gizmo thing if it wasn't needed.

Is this a wrought (sp?) or not ?

Firefight

[duckman]

Okay all you now all techno types, whats the go,

When I got my Micron can, I was told I need a Power comander thingy which was going to cost more than the can :disapint: , well being a Scot and a bit of a tight prick I thought I would try with out it , So now I have done about 4k with this new can and my fuel consumption is pretty much the same as it was b4 , The bike has more mid range perforamce sounds great and is not burning anymore fuel ! .

Being a guy I only read a few lines of the article on power cmder thingys in the bike trader a couple of months ago, it was two long winded, so now I want to know why was I supposed to fit the gizmo thing if it wasn't needed.

Is this a wrought (sp?) or not ?

Firefight

Hey Dave,

It's just a device for altering your fuel air mixture. This can be important when you change things like your exhaust or air filter. If you bike is running fine then I wouldn't worry about it.
but if you do want one I've got a PCIII for sale ...

[vifferman]

Is this a wrought (sp?) or not ?

It's a matter of opinion wheter it is a rort or not. It gives more control over your tuning, but this is of benefit only if (a) it needs to be changed, and (b) you can manage to get the map right.

I was talking to a friend the other night - he heard that K&N had sold their interest in the PC's and were selling their remaining stock cheap. He bought one for his VFR800 for $US25!

[750Y]

Hi Dave,
You will find that there is a certain amount of adjustment that can be done using your stock ecu. generally it can handle a change of +/- 10% a/f ratio. a competent dealer will be able to do this for You but they must have the right equipment. Amps has the gear & so does red baron.
a lot of it is marketing hype in that Micron want you to believe that by fitting their muffler You are radically changing the fuelling of your bike, but it is generally BS. forget the PC, save your money buddy.

[Paul in NZ]

Now I happen to think these new fangled electric starters are pretty cool so don’t quote me OK and without getting into the debate on whether these tings work or not…

When bikes first started getting EFI they (naturally) got PC’s to control the fuel and ignition. Some of these earlier PC could be change using downloadable files and tweaked externally using a PC. Bloody useful because you could run the thing on a dyno, take readings at certain speeds and tweak to suit.

Trouble is, everyone tweaks for performance and the factory has to tweak for performance AND emissions so eventually all the factories now have to lock down their systems so the owner can’t tweak much. That means if the factory tweaks in a fuggly great glitch to pass a noise or emission test, you are stuck with it.

The Power Commander fits between your bikes computer and the ignition / injector.

It modifies the command to these devices according to it’s own program (usually called a map). You can download suitable maps for your bike / filter / pipe combo off the internet and do some tweaks as well. All very nice if you have a common bike and it is set up by a clever clogs.

In the Guzzi world, their effectiveness is debatable and lots of evidence in both camps. HOWEVER! The best Guzzi solution is from Aussie where a REALLY clever clogs just said stuff it, and built a whole new replacement EFI from scratch! (yoiks). He has a web page about it. Astonishing when you think about it!! (I really love people like that)

Paul N

[Blakamin]

In the Guzzi world, their effectiveness is debatable and lots of evidence in both camps. HOWEVER! The best Guzzi solution is from Aussie where a REALLY clever clogs just said stuff it, and built a whole new replacement EFI from scratch! (yoiks). He has a web page about it. Astonishing when you think about it!! (I really love people like that)

Paul N

A guy in Cairns did that for his 351 XD station wagon (in pooh brown)
Fabricated the lot.. intake manifold all the way to the tailpipe... wrote his own EFI program.. blew me away!

[manuboy]

Yeah FF, gotta echo most of whats been said here - i've seen quite a few dyno's of my bike with / wout PC's installed, and you can definitely tune out the flat spots, but is it worth the dosh? The manufacturers maps are normally tuned pretty good but take into account emissions stuff.

I actually like aftermarket pipes in combo with standard maps, you get the rumble/pop of deceleration which sounds cool! (IMHO)

They're more useful if you're racing where you might wanna have complete control over your tuning. I'll get one maybe if they get a LOT cheaper. Just cos.

[Coldkiwi]

would the newer smarter EFI units (ie. Daves R6) sort of tune themselves in response to a different back pressure etc associated with a new muffler anyway?

Perhaps a PC would be more necessary on a crappier muffler (Micron's being fairly good kit and all)?

[Cajun]

Dave if you were gonna be keeping it long term yes it would be a good idea, but your not so don't bother not worth they outlay really, are handy if you wanna do lot sof tweaking with FI settings, and mods on bike to get every little hp out of the sucker you can, but your not in to that sorta game

[Hoon]

Changing the exhaust/air filter etc may or may not change your fuelling requirements. More than often it does change things and you will require a different map to get the most out of your investment. However some people are quite happy with the extra 5hp the muffler gives on its own without the extra say 3hp on top it would give if they used a more accurate map. Then again your bike might be sweet and not need any adjustment at all!

Unfortunately bikes are different to cars and don't have sensors all over the place so the mixture isn't adjusted on the fly like cars do.

But if your main reason for getting a muffler is looks and sound then I wouldn't worry. However if you are after performance or racing then its more a matter of leaving no stone unturned and spending mega$$$ on any possibility of a performance increase.

[Firefight]

Think I will leave things as they are, its doubtful that pouring more money in to get another 3 hp (which I would be unable to use anyway) would be good stewardship of money, thats about 3 new rear tyres !!


Thanks again for you replies.

F/F

[DEATH_INC.]

I ran a 3r on the 12,it worked real well,but if you find she runs ok then I wouldn't bother,there's a lot of setup to get it right.The maps from k&n and off sites rarely work on all bikes(same model...),even with the same mods.

[Paul in NZ]

You would need to know more than I but..

There are basically 2 types of FI. Open and closed loop. Closed loop is more modern and has sensors and shit and self tunes (I thinks thats right)

Trouble is. What does it self tune too? Max HP or max efficiency OR a combo?

Emission / noise tests are standardised (say) 3,000 rpm in 2nd gear.. Hence the dip there.

Paul N

[Motu]

That's about right Paul,motorcycle EFI is very unsophisticated compared to even basic car systems,bikes are missing idle control completly,that's why bike riders are always talking about surging and stuff never found in cars.Closed loop needs an oxy sensor so it can monitor fuel mixture.Even car systems of over 10 yrs ago could self learn - so if you finaly fixed it - then it would run worse! try explaining that to a customer! Kinda like learning to limp with a prickle in your foot,take it out and you may still limp for awhile.Fords would have to relearn how to idle if you lost the memory - there was some complicted proceedure you had to go through,but was almost impossible to do on the road,you'd need and empty race track to do it.Sometimes it would take a couple of weeks for the idle to settle down,after charging several hundred dollars for the repair.

[dangerous]

Hi Dave,
You will find that..............

agreed with all you say there.

In the Guzzi world, their effectiveness is debatable and lots of evidence in both camps. HOWEVER! The best Guzzi solution is from Aussie where a REALLY clever clogs just said stuff it, and built a whole new replacement EFI from scratch! (yoiks). He has a web page about it. Astonishing when you think about it!! (I really love people like that)
Paul N

Cliff Jeffries http://www.jefferies-au.org/My16M/index.htm is his name and his ECU is by far superior than the Guzzi one... but then that wouldent be hard aye, The ECU in my 97 1100i sport was slower thinking than my 21yr old CX500 turbo were it ran up to the sec the Guzzi puter would be about 2min behind eg: if I came off the open rd and stoped the thing would still be thinking that it is doing 5000rpm not 900rpm at idel.... so as the mix/timing would be up the wop, it would stall.
So I changed the eprom chip (mapping) and it was improved, a PC3 would help about the same but would not be a fix. If you are racing or draging then a PC3 is what ya need other wise its most likely a wast of money.

FF.... FWIW the shop should be able to plug your bike in dile up 'fuel mix +/- 5%' and un plug.... tiz that easy, but I wouldent think that you would even have to do that.