Damping Technology

[Robert Taylor]

Hello Kiwi Bikers!

My name is Max McAllister, and I am President of Traxxion Dynamics, Inc.



I know many of you are familiar with our name and our products. Robert T did an exceptional job of representing our products for several years, and he sold dozens and dozens of NZ racers and bikers our AK-20 Axxion Cartridge Kits.

I know that dozens of races and several NZ National Championships were won using Traxxion AK-20s, at least through 2005.

It was only through reading here that I learned our parts were "in the bin", and "direct rip offs of Ohlins Products", and "consigned to history" in NZ.

I am saddened to hear this!

I will accept the statement that my design is a "copy/ ripoff of Ohlins 98 model Superbike pistons with Race Tech size porting" as a compliment of sorts...

For certain, we have never copied anything Ohlins has ever made, to this day. They still have not made any piston, of any diameter, that looks like our parts. Ohlins Superbike forks use 25mm internals, and we don't use or believe in, use, or recommend 25mm cartridges unless you are stuck with them.

A copy is a copy...

I was the first to marry a valve high-flow (Typically Showa, but also modeled by Race Tech) piston with a digressive external ring into a single part. Both OEM Showa and Race Tech made a high flow linear piston, and the Ohlins SB piston was digressive only on the low speed side (dishing shim stack)... the tiny ports in the Ohlins piston (high speed) are actually progressive, which is one key area where bump harshness comes from. Anyplace that has bumps will appreciate having these removed. I have heard through the grapevine you have some bumps in NZ!

So if taking facets of other designs and combining them into a fashion that no other company had ever done, makes me a rip-off artist... then I guess I am guilty. I thought I was being inventive...

Anyway, as far as our products being "consigned to history"... I can't see how our kits were good enough for Tony Rees to win a championship with in 2005, and in 2006 or 7 they are "in the bin".

Our products have not stopped winning races elsewhere in the world!

In fact, we are the 1st, and only company in the world to have a fully Supersport Legal, bolt in, gas-charged fork cartridge kit, the AK-Gas. We have sold scores of sets of these around the world. Their quality and function is unmatched. At least one other major suspension manufacturer in the world will be selling them under a private label in 2008.

AMA Privateer Jake Holden (Jordan Motorsports) used our AK-Gas cartridges on his GSXR1000 Superstock Bike to stand on the box many times in 2007, consistently outqualifying and beating the factory teams. At the final race of the year at Laguna Seca, he Set Pole, won the race, and Set the Lap Record.
(PS, he did this without a single valving change or adjustment during the entire 2007 racing season...).

Consigned to History?

In the Bin?

I don't think so.


One thing I have found to be fact: Suspension tuners in every country on Earth think there is something special and hard to work with at the tracks in their country, and they convince their local racers of the same. A bump is a bump, a hole is a hole, a crack is a crack. They all exist in tracks all over the world.

I do undertand that your bumps are pointing down from the earth and ours point up here in the States... but your bikes should weigh less, and hit the bumps with less force since you are hangin' off the bottom of the earth... ... seriously, though...

I have worked at racetracks in the USA, Canada, Japan, Austrailia, Qatar, England, France, Italy, and Spain. It's not the black magic it's cracked up to be.

I have only seen one track in the world that was so bad, I wasn't sure any brand of suspension mattered, and that was Shubenacadie, in Nova Scotia, far Eastern Canada... the snow and ice that's there for months on end destroys the pavement, LITERALLY. Other than that... there's not been any track I have seen that required anything mystical to make a bike go around it.

We have gone to great lengths to make products that work for racers at all levels, that don't require constant rework (never mind having to be reworked before you even use them) and the constant attention of an expert tuner. Couple that with our pricing which is far below that of any comparable product, and I think you will find Traxxion products to be a winning choice, and they will add great value to your racing program.

If you have any questions, please email me, max@traxxion.com .

Sincerely,

Max McAllister
President
Traxxion Dynamics, Inc.

You know Max I got to thinking in the middle of the night about the relative merits of bending shim stack type mid-valves as opposed to fixed / limited stroke mid valves.
Lets be clear that this is a tech discussion devoid of politics and if any ''third party'' posts trivialising or patronising what has been said then it abundantly proves a point.
As you well realise the conventional check plate type mid valve has a clearly definable area of ''dead stroke'', that being the check plate opening distance, because it is the first thing that moves when the fork is under compression. Most compression damping control is via the base compression pistons in the bottom of the cartridge.
In the bending shim stack type mid valve there isnt a sudden opening of a check plate but a modulated flow contolled by a shim stack. With a properly arranged / developed shim stack and port sizes it will modulate limited flow at small fork shaft velocities but with also lots of allowable deflection can move much greater volume of fluid ( than a checkplate type ) at higher fork velocities. Much less emphasis is therefore placed on the base compression pistons ( although they are by no means redundant ) and the fork damping action becomes much closer to a shock in action, albeit an emulsion shock.
I see that at least the basic principle ( not neccessarily the intended function and true benefits ) are appearing in more and more oem sportbike forks. In quoting my beloved viking cartridges the compression flow ports through what they now call the main piston ( also the rebound piston ) are huge in size with a very responsive shim stack with lots of allowable deflection. With the proper settings these forks ride the bumps quite well. I imagine K-Tech cartridges are similiar in principle.
Last season we were still using checkplate rebound pistons as we had no pre-testing time. These old pistons are now ''consigned to the bin'' !
I do agree that gas charged cartridges are the future, as with everything there is a ''gestation period'' for the market to accept it due to the extra cost. The set I purchased off you are still in circulation and will probably be raced with again this season and certainly when Craig Shirriffs used them he made very favourable comments.
Yes bumps are bumps and we have a very high ratio of circuits with them. I cannot answer for your circuits but we have a lot of emphasis on reducing excessive rear end acceleration squat off slow exit speed corners. Thats an area we work with lots with rear shocks. No shock out of the box be it WP, Penske or Ohlins has adequate squat control. In the case of your beloved Penskes your own piston addresses that problem nicely but my criticism is that the setting step changes are a little coarse. Thats where I think lots of shims rather than a few have benefit.
The shock Shaun refers to in code is a marriage of components that I put together. Ohlins 46mm body tube and shaft machined to accept a bullnose rebound needle, Traxxion piston adapted to fit, Ohlins top out spring system and hose reservoir accepted to fit Penske hi / lo speed end adjuster. Ohlins low friction rebound piston sourced from their automotive division. What Shaun doesnt know or realise is that amount of fluid the 46mm piston and 16mm shaft combination pushes is quite different to your setup within the Penske installation of around 43 - 44mm ( ? ) and 5/8 inch shaft. This took a lot of ( and I mean a lot ) of dyno runs to get right. The benefit of the hose reservoir is that the shock is now more readily adaptable to different bikes. I gained knowledge out of this exercise, but certainly recovered much much less than my true costs.
This shock works very well, but time doesnt stand still and I would have to say we have got the TTX36 working at another level with ongoing development. There are many ways to skin a cat and this is an interesting one. But like new products with new ways of working there are too many people working with them internationally with either a ham fisted approach and much less than adequate product knowledge. Working with suspension units I believe needs a solid background of having formally trained and worked in related trades requiring engineering precision, plus a clear head, at all times. Combine that with riders who can provide clear and concise feedback.
I am at odds with you though that suspension units can be made that dont need tuning from circuit to circuit. I think in the States there is a big problem in that many blue chip products are sold just as a ''tool'' and then the end user is left to find a tuner to optimise the base setting. If he is lucky he will find a good tuner. In my case I can at least sleep in the knowledge that we pre-optimise the product to the stated rider stats and speed as much as possible prior to sending out and then follow through from there. Especially the very top guys will always be looking to try something further and Shaun will vouch that I was always pulling things apart to attempt to make them work better.

[Robert Taylor]

That is kind of like saying, "I like my pants even if they are weird








Rude of me again, sorry night Rob

Perhaps you werent spanked on the bottom hard enough when you were naughty as a child!

[tri boy]

That is kind of like saying, "I like my pants even if they are weird

If you saw my clothing style, you would understand some of my thought patterns.

[JD Racing]

As you well realise the conventional check plate type mid valve has a clearly definable area of ''dead stroke'', that being the check plate opening distance, because it is the first thing that moves when the fork is under compression. Most compression damping control is via the base compression pistons in the bottom of the cartridge.
In the bending shim stack type mid valve there isnt a sudden opening of a check plate but a modulated flow contolled by a shim stack. With a properly arranged / developed shim stack and port sizes it will modulate limited flow at small fork shaft velocities but with also lots of allowable deflection can move much greater volume of fluid ( than a checkplate type ) at higher fork velocities.

An interesting discussion guys:

Surely the dead stroke is determined by the spring force or preload on the checkplate, this can be tuned to give any characteristics, yes it's opening can be abrupt but there are ways around this.
I don't understand how you determine that a midvalve will be able to flow more than a check plate at higher shaft velocities, most check plates that I have seen move a sufficeint distance that means any restriction to flow is purely determined by the port dimensions.

[Shaun Harris]

If you saw my clothing style, you would understand some of my thought patterns.

If you saw my skinny arse and mouth without teeth, you would know why all say that I am an ugly bugger but who really cares eh

[Mental Trousers]

If you saw my skinny arse and mouth without teeth, you would know why all say that I am an ugly bugger but who really cares eh

Mate, you were ugly before.

[Shaun]

Mate, you were ugly before.

Prick, and morning to you as well mate

[Shaun]

The shock Shaun refers to in code is a marriage of components that I put together. Ohlins 46mm body tube and shaft machined to accept a bullnose rebound needle, Traxxion piston adapted to fit, Ohlins top out spring system and hose reservoir accepted to fit Penske hi / lo speed end adjuster. ( So a copy)


Rob, could you please define your understanding of "copyrite" that you continiously mention! and please explain what you mean when you refer to " People who copy others idea's" aka above!

( A big part of why I used to love working with you, WE used to try a lot of different parts for me to give you a reasnable opinion from a rider's point of view on how the worked)



I gained knowledge out of this exercise, but certainly recovered much much less than my true costs.

Same here Rob. it used to cost me a lot of money to go to a race track to test and develop these units, ie petrol for travel, a day off work, petrol for bike, tyres for bike, wear and tear on the bike, track rental fee;s etc etc
1 test day, approx $ 750-00


and Shaun will vouch that I was always pulling things apart to attempt to make them work better.

As per every time I refer to you, and your true skill in your set up surgery required for the Ohlin's work and development that you do here Robert, you are bloody brilliant in this role, thanks for your enthusiasm and commitment, and I would want to use you again to work on the Ohlin's shock, if I ever was to use one ever again

[Robert Taylor]

An interesting discussion guys:

Surely the dead stroke is determined by the spring force or preload on the checkplate, this can be tuned to give any characteristics, yes it's opening can be abrupt but there are ways around this.
I don't understand how you determine that a midvalve will be able to flow more than a check plate at higher shaft velocities, most check plates that I have seen move a sufficeint distance that means any restriction to flow is purely determined by the port dimensions.

It is indeed very interesting and there is no textbook material about it! The Ohlins 25mm piston used in their cartridges has huge flow area and no restrictor stop plate for the shim stack. Its flow rate is greater than the previous check plate piston arrangement. BUT, it also modulates the flow by opening the door only as much as is required, not its open by this amount and thats what youve got!

The spring force on that checkplate can indeed be tuned ( within the limitations of such a system )but you are always having to be mindful of introducing harshness. As you will know, we often remove midvalves and fit check plates in mx stuff to give more compliance etc. In road and road race stuff there is only a third of the travel than mx so the damping has to ''build'' right away, not a mm or so later when the train is already runaway.

When in the Ohlins cartridges we ''binned'' the old style pistons and went to the ''mid valve'' type the rider feedback and lap times improved.

[Robert Taylor]

An interesting discussion guys:

Surely the dead stroke is determined by the spring force or preload on the checkplate, this can be tuned to give any characteristics, yes it's opening can be abrupt but there are ways around this.
I don't understand how you determine that a midvalve will be able to flow more than a check plate at higher shaft velocities, most check plates that I have seen move a sufficeint distance that means any restriction to flow is purely determined by the port dimensions.

Max if he has time to reply may well come back with a plausible argument totally different to mine and I would respect him about it.

[Robert Taylor]

As per every time I refer to you, and your true skill in your set up surgery required for the Ohlin's work and development that you do here Robert, you are bloody brilliant in this role, thanks for your enthusiasm and commitment, and I would want to use you again to work on the Ohlin's shock, if I ever was to use one ever again

There has been a bunch of shocks ( and steering dampers ) coming out of Thailand that are a blatant rip off of Ohlins ( even a plagiarised name ) Made out of sawdust and very very poor function. Made for volume sale and commercial gain. A world away from a one off special. Over and out, Ive got serious work to do.

[Shaun Harris]

Max if he has time to reply may well come back with a plausible argument totally different to mine and I would respect him about it.

Hope so!

This place is so cool now that you and Max are here, ( But Max is from the USA and does have a huge customer base there and europe, and is talking to his customers a lot already, so may not get here very often at all) you guys can inform as many as you can on the engineering/testing/theory/development side of things, as this is an area that you re both experts, perhaps Max a little more due to his engineering/manufacturing side of his proven buisness


I will just carry on selling people the product that they choose to buy through me, ( Even Ohlin's again, if you want me to Robert) as well as continue to advise on set up and so on for them, ( As I am a rider, who has proven to be reasnoable at his TRADE/CRAFT Which is riding a bike and setting it up to be ridden, from a riders point of view)

Sorry Rob, but even FROSTY could kick your arse on a bike bahahaha, way cool, all riders now have the so called experts at there service

[Pancakes]

Yes much of what you have said is fair. But NZ does seem to be a place ( for many reasons ) where many people automatically think cheap is best and forego thought about longevity problems that almost always occur.

Totally agree! There is a culture in NZ where anything that has above average cost is often viewed as a rip off, not as the high end product it may well be. There will always be a place for safe and well functioning but maybe not as good products that cost a bit less for people lacking the budget to splash out or who don't use their bike or whatever enough to justify it. (Or who's wife feels they need to spend all the money first!)

I used to coach climbing and was often asked to train and outfit people or groups to expeditions. There were times when advice for one peice of gear might be spend as little as possible for that peice of equiptment so you can trash it or leave it without much worry. At other times I would advise that they should buy the best or lightest unit out there or not bother as the difference was massive. Comes down to people like You and Max etc who know not just what but why and how.

Still intersted to see if this YSS stuff might be half as good at half the price or not worth looking at.

[vifferman]

Still intersted to see if this YSS stuff might be half as good at half the price or not worth looking at.

For Joe Average, if it's better'n WotTheyGotNow, and cheaper'n WhatThey'dReallyLikeButSeeAsTooExpensiveToJustify, then it's a win for them. A Bargain, in fact!

Trouble is, there's no real history for YSS to consider and balance against the risk, so for the punter it's just a shot in the dark, hoping for a bargain but risking wasting their money.

[cowpoos]

For Joe Average, if it's better'n WotTheyGotNow, and cheaper'n WhatThey'dReallyLikeButSeeAsTooExpensiveToJustify, then it's a win for them. A Bargain, in fact!

Trouble is, there's no real history for YSS to consider and balance against the risk, so for the punter it's just a shot in the dark, hoping for a bargain but risking wasting their money.

how would you know its better than what you have now??