Euro transport authority questions need for “Motorcycle toys”

[macca]

Just like the Rugby player, skier, cyclist, skateboarder, and any other participant in physical rec activity you care to mention expect nanny state to fix them up and nurse their broken bodies back to health.... So whats your point - Ban everything except sitting like a sad arse in front of the TV?....

[dipshit]

So whats your point - Ban everything except sitting like a sad arse in front of the TV?....

Governments don't care so much about what we do with our lives... they care about budgets. They are always looking at ways to reduce costs as taxpayers do not have bottomless pockets. This may mean sports clubs need to take out their own insurance policies to cover injuries. The idea has been floated. Search and rescue can send out the bill if a person was particularly negligent and went against the advice of authorities or something.

Likewise motorcyclists that make up 2% of road users and generally soaking up 12% of ACC costs. We shouldn't act surprised if governments think about banning bikes and getting us to drive cars instead. There have been calls in America to ban high-performance street bikes from time to time. Maybe one day they will find a way to make it stick.

What can be done is to realise this - and for all of us to take more responsibility on the roads to reduce our road toll to levels more similar to cars, so we are not seen as some minority target in the eyes of the bean counters.

You follow?

[swbarnett]

However it is the Nanny State that has to pick them up off the road and fix them up and nurse their broken bodies back to health. This they expect the state to pay for at no extra cost to them.

The "Nanny State" doesn't HAVE to do anything. As far as I'm concerned any individual (or government) is quite within their moral rights to leave me bleeding to death on the side of the road if that is their choice. I don't expect any help from anybody. Should I ever need help I will treat the people giving it with the respect they deserve for being (at that moment) very generous, selfless human beings. However, the choice to help me is theirs, not mine. Don't blame me if you can't handle the consequences of your decisions.

[MSTRS:Me]

Interesting...



So can anybody else see the double standard here?

Not that I can see. We live here, we pay taxes for a variety of purposes like it or not, NannyState increasingly chips away at our 'freedoms' (presumeably to ensure we keep living to pay taxes), we moan about things and continue to do what we enjoy.
Should motorcycles be banned because of 'cost to the taxpayer', do you see our taxes being reduced? THAT would be the double standard to which you refer?

[MSTRS:Me]

- and for all of us to take more responsibility on the roads to reduce our road toll to levels more similar to cars

We've had this discussion elsewhere. The stats say that approx half of all motorcycle crashes were primarily caused by a cager, and about 1 third are m/c only.
You'd be better lobbying for stricter driving standards in cagers.

[swbarnett]

Governments don't care so much about what we do with our lives... they care about budgets. They are always looking at ways to reduce costs as taxpayers do not have bottomless pockets. This may mean sports clubs need to take out their own insurance policies to cover injuries.

Compulsory medical insurance. Works well in other countries.

Search and rescue can send out the bill if a person was particularly negligent and went against the advice of authorities or something.

Can't really argue with this as long as it can be clearly defined and agreed where the cut-off point lies (something that I think will be very had if not impossible to do).

Likewise motorcyclists that make up 2% of road users and generally soaking up 12% of ACC costs. We shouldn't act surprised if governments think about banning bikes and getting us to drive cars instead.

Surprised, no. Angry, yes. If they were to apply this logic across the board we'd have less room to complain but as long as smoking is still legal they can leave us the hell alone.

There have been calls in America to ban high-performance street bikes from time to time. Maybe one day they will find a way to make it stick.

The day they do is the day I (and probably many others) change countries.

What can be done is to realise this - and for all of us to take more responsibility on the roads to reduce our road toll to levels more similar to cars, so we are not seen as some minority target in the eyes of the bean counters.

I don't think that our road toll is that much different to cars in terms of number of serious accidents (can anyone confirm this?). The disproportinate cost comes from the fact that the consequences are greater because of the lower level of protection (which is also why so many of us enjoy riding so much). Until you start building roll cages for motorcycles (which I doubt many of us would stand for) this isn't going to change.

You follow?

I think most of understand your logic. We just don't accept that anyone has the right to foist bad science on us and call it a safety measure.

[Ocean1]

So can anybody else see the double standard here?

No. We don't have a choice whether to pay government imposed fees. If we did I'd be paying twice as much for a service 4 times better. And I still wouldn't bitch about those who choose to do otherwise, it's their choice to make, not mine and not the state's.

Not that I can see. We live here, we pay taxes for a variety of purposes like it or not, NannyState increasingly chips away at our 'freedoms' (presumeably to ensure we keep living to pay taxes), we moan about things and continue to do what we enjoy.
Should motorcycles be banned because of 'cost to the taxpayer', do you see our taxes being reduced? THAT would be the double standard to which you refer?

+1

[davereid]

However it is the Nanny State that has to pick them up off the road and fix them up and nurse their broken bodies back to health. This they expect the state to pay for at no extra cost to them.

No. I don't expect the state to do anything for me, and I don't believe I have any obligation to the state.

However, Nanny has decided that I will pay for ACC via my income tax, my fuel levy, and my rego.

So I feel absolutely entitled to use it.

Trouble for Nanny is, now she has promised (even though I never wanted it) to patch me up, she now feels the pinch in the wallet every time I hurt myself.

So that means, she thinks she has the right to tell me what to do.

I don't agree, but she has the guns to make sure its done her way.

But here the bit I do like.

Even if I don't pay my rego, I'm covered.
Even if I'm pissed, doing something illegal or committing a crime I'm covered.

So, while I hate ACC on principle, as a piss poor driver, a shocking user of safety equipment, and generally an ignorer of Nannys rules I love it !

So its great. I can (usually do) ignore the rules, and I'm still covered.

My driving history makes me un-insurable. But Nanny great ACC is there for me even when I don't pay the rego.

[swbarnett]

It occurrs to me that if you were to ban motorcycles just becaure they are used in preference to a cage purely for pleasure (this is not true for every body anyway, some are just for economy) then you have to ban everything else that is also just for pleasure.

You would have to close all the restaurants to prevent food poisoning. Hell, why do we eat tasty food at all. Some bland concoction pumped full of antibiotics and preservatives should keep your body alive.

You would have to close all the hotels to prevent unnesessary dangerous travel by whatever means. Afterall, aren't holidays as unnecessary as motorcycles?

The list continues... Pretty soon we'll only be allowed to work and sleep.

[James Deuce]

I don't think that our road toll is that much different to cars in terms of number of serious accidents (can anyone confirm this?). The disproportinate cost comes from the fact that the consequences are greater because of the lower level of protection (which is also why so many of us enjoy riding so much).

You're right about consequence, but unfortunately our accident rate is much higher per vehicle type and road user than any other road user group. We have much higher single vehicle accident rates too. We are the architects of our own demise, and until you all accept that and stop riding so hard that your only options are crash or miracle, we are fucked at some point in the short-medium future.

http://www.stats.govt.nz

[James Deuce]

Just like the Rugby player, skier, cyclist, skateboarder, and any other participant in physical rec activity you care to mention expect nanny state to fix them up and nurse their broken bodies back to health.... So whats your point - Ban everything except sitting like a sad arse in front of the TV?....

If it doesn't have an engine and therefore a neon lit carbon footprint, it is classified as acceptable human endeavour. Lets not discuss the carbon footprint inherent in a lot of the high tech aids for these specialised sports.

We're regarded as hoons and use vehicles (all the post-peak oil production petrol gone - Nooooooooo) for pleasure at a time when we should all be using public transport and leaving the car at home, only using it to visit Aunty Mabel on weekends, provided we drive the 80 kms at 60 km/hr and carry a minimum of 16 passengers..

[dipshit]

And at the same time car technology and safety features increase, ( http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/research/vehicles/esc.html ) while motorcycle survivability remains in the dark ages by comparison.

If motorcyclists keep on with the carnage like we are today, then there is a very real possibility that the authorities will decide to do something about it.

And I would be majorly pissed off about that. However I would not be surprised or blame the lawmakers. It would be idiot and irresponsible motorcyclists that couldn't see this coming that I would be pissed at.

[dipshit]

Surprised, no. Angry, yes. If they were to apply this logic across the board we'd have less room to complain but as long as smoking is still legal they can leave us the hell alone.

Why do you think they are running the public health system into the ground? If you have to wait a couple of years to even get on a waiting list... this is making paying out of your own pocket to go for private healthcare a no-brainer.

[swbarnett]

You're right about consequence, but unfortunately our accident rate is much higher per vehicle type and road user than any other road user group.

Thanks for the clarification.

On further thought it makes sense that our accident rate would be higher. Where a cage will skid to a stop even sideways it would take a very skilled rider indeed to emulate that on a bike.

I wonder how things would stack up if you only considered skilled drivers and riders and forgot about the lowest common denominator for a moment?

If it doesn't have an engine and therefore a neon lit carbon footprint, it is classified as acceptable human endeavour.

My carbon footprint is far lower since I got back on a bike as I use it almost exclusively. The cage just sits in the garage for use when carrying large items (usually the sea kayaks).

Also, if the government actively encouraged motorcycle use the carbon footprint of the overall vehicle fleet could be reduced dramatically.

We're regarded as hoons and use vehicles (all the post-peak oil production petrol gone - Nooooooooo) for pleasure at a time when we should all be using public transport and leaving the car at home, only using it to visit Aunty Mabel on weekends, provided we drive the 80 kms at 60 km/hr and carry a minimum of 16 passengers..

Yes, I ride for pleasure. However, a large proportion of the kms that I travel are for commuting (which is now pleasurable and stress reducing; the exact opposite of the cage).

It has also been argued that a motorcycle fleet makes for very good public transport. You go where you want, when you want using only the fuel that you need whereas a bus or train will take you to the general area only at a preset time not of your choosing (and often not as stated in the timetable) using the fuel required to shift it's entire bulk whether there are passengers or not.

[Ocean1]

I would not be surprised or blame the lawmakers. It would be idiot and irresponsible motorcyclists that couldn't see this coming that I would be pissed at.

How can you claim to be responsible for you own behaviour and then blame others for making you change it? Dude that reeks of double-think. If they do ban bikes from the roads it'll be "for our own good", and I won't be blaming anyone other than the fuckwits that made the cost of my behavour their business.

Why do you think they are running the public health system into the ground? If you have to wait a couple of years to even get on a waiting list... this is making paying out of your own pocket to go for private healthcare a no-brainer.

At no time in the last decade has the health budget decreased, quite the reverse. You've got no idea what you're talking about.