Integrating into a foreign society

**Kickaha** · 2nd November 2004, 18:10

Just reading the local paper today how the QE2 swimming pool has provided a screened off area so Islamic women may swim with out being looked up by men other than their husbands

Lately in the courts there has been argument regarding the wearing of the burqa as the women have stated due to their beliefs they would be shamed if they were to expose their faces

If you travel to live in a country other than your own where the beliefs and customs are not the same as your own how far should that society go to accomodate you,and should they make exception to the rules based on your religion and cultural differences in the society from where you came

I'm not saying thats what they're doing in the above examples but you get the idea as courts have allowed witnesses to give evidence before from behind screens

Does our society not allow these people to integrate themselves as well as they could because of the differences,or do these people choose not to try for the same reasons,will it be left to the children/grandchildren to change there ways as they grow up in a different homeland and culture than their parents did?

If I moved to foreign shores(ie North Island) and lived in the Wellington area would I be required to play pool and get pissed on thursday nights at roqm in order to fully accepted as a member of society or would the different ethnic background make that impossible

If I moved further north and wanted to participate in the many rides that happen would I have to take my turn in their weird rituals and take my turn as the weekly sacrifice (BIN) before being allowed full membership of their society

**James Deuce** · 2nd November 2004, 18:27

Get yer arse up to Wellington and stop whinging about intangibles. The differences are what make moving fun.

**merv** · 2nd November 2004, 18:36

Its a bit much to expect the greater society to change to meet requirements of interlopers.

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

**Mongoose** · 2nd November 2004, 19:04

Originally Posted by merv

Its a bit much to expect the greater society to change to meet requirements of interlopers.

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

Bloody hell, never realised that life was so tough way back in the seventies, that must have been diabolical.Are you emotionaly scarred, do you need therapy or are you well and truely over it?

**Hitcher** · 2nd November 2004, 19:08

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

**Mongoose** · 2nd November 2004, 19:13

Originally Posted by Hitcher

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

Dead right Mr Hitcher, that applies to any people travelling to a new country, be why you can go to the Kiwi Bar in China for example.

**Warren** · 2nd November 2004, 19:14

Originally Posted by Kickaha

If you travel to live in a country other than your own where the beliefs and customs are not the same as your own how far should that society go to accomodate you,and should they make exception to the rules based on your religion and cultural differences in the society from where you came

I believe the early foreigner's (pakeha) actually tried to force the natives (Maori) to adopt their culture.

**James Deuce** · 2nd November 2004, 19:20

Originally Posted by Hitcher

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

Exactly

If I may:

Immigrants are fundamental to the growth and development of any society, however unpalatable that is to the "established order". They bring new ideas, challenge exisiting attitudes, often bring bad juju, but always provide the necessary catalyst for change. Immigrants can come from an internal migration, or an external influx. Either way a society that doesn't allow immigration to happen will find itself wondering why it is sliding down the standards of living index, or unable to trade their currency on financial markets, within a generation.

Nicholas Lemann wrote a marvelous book, The Promised Land: The Great Black Migration and How It Changed America, on the internal migration patterns of African Americans in the US, from the South to the North and back to the South again. Richard Florida examines the effect immigration has on the creative elements of a society in his book, "The Rise of the Creative Class". Florida's work is a bit intellectual, but Lemann's book reads like a modern version of Roots. Both books will help anyone who has an interest in this stuff understand New Zealand really well, by providing a spin on the traditional viewpoint we use to examine ourselves and how our society is changing.

Get used to change because it's the only guaranteed thing in life, unlike the crap they tell you about death and taxes.

**James Deuce** · 2nd November 2004, 19:24

Originally Posted by Warren

I believe the early foreigner's (pakeha) actually tried to force the natives (Maori) to adopt their culture.

They didn't actually. US whalers and British immigrants didn't actually think like that at all. Missionaries are a different story altogether, and their motivation was somewhat different from either of the aforementioned groups.

US Whalers just wanted sex and somewhere to get pissed, while the first Brits were after the capacity to determine their own destiny independent of the British class structure. The original plan was to get along. Busby and the NZ Company had different plans however.

**750Y** · 2nd November 2004, 20:11

Originally Posted by Jim2

They didn't actually..

no, it was actually the 3 million that followed within the next 150 years, lol.

**Kickaha** · 2nd November 2004, 20:19

Originally Posted by Hitcher

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

Are you talking children that immigrate with the parents or born in a new country that the parents chose to move to?

I would suspect the reason their children fit right in as they are bought up and schooled within a different culture than their parents,their habits and culture are less ingrained in them and are perhaps less resistant to change and new experience

**Kickaha** · 2nd November 2004, 20:21

Originally Posted by merv

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

I'm suprised you managed to make it out alive

**James Deuce** · 2nd November 2004, 20:28

Originally Posted by Kickaha

Are you talking children that immigrate with the parents or born in a new country that the parents chose to move to?

I would suspect the reason their children fit right in as they are bought up and schooled within a different culture than their parents,their habits and culture are less ingrained in them and are perhaps less resistant to change and new experience

The children that come with the parents and the ones born in the "new country" do equally as well at integrating. Bear in mind that the people who emigrate from everything they know are very special to even consider that process, and despite appearances (ghettos, slums, ethinic neighbourhoods) actually integrate themselves into their new society more than you would expect at first glance.

**Warren** · 2nd November 2004, 22:12

Originally Posted by merv

Its a bit much to expect the greater society to change to meet requirements of interlopers.

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

If you go to southland (Invercargill, Bluff etc) you may need to roll your rrrrr's, they have invented a new language down there.

I dropped my doughnut on my shirrrt.