Feminism - what is it?

[MadDuck]

Well, sure. Just so long as they're short enough to pat on the head when necessary.....

Hoi I object....i prefer it when tall blokes use my head as an arm rest whilst holding their beer

[007XX]

Keen on a bit of layup practice, eh?

Oh can we? can we? *tail wagging*

C'mon, throw the ball man...

[BIHB@0610]

Thanks! Newbie to this - still learning

[ManDownUnder]

.......

My view is that men ruled women for so long for the same reasons the US dominates world politics. Sadly... might is right. Not right in the "correct" or "unquestionably justified" sense. More accurately, might brings rights. If I disagree with jrandom, but he's a 5th Dan (boom tish) black belt in somethingorother and folds me into the middle of next week every time we disagree on something ... I'm going to learn to stop disagreeing PDQ.

Likewise as a generalisation, men historically have had a physical advantage over women meaning that ultimately we (men) could get want we want. We got power, the chance to enshrine that into statue when civilisation became advanced enough and the rest is history. Which is where I would really like to leave it - in the past.

As a man living in the here and now, I am not accountable for the misguided deeds of my forefathers. If my grea great great male step/grand/uncle father raped and pillaged a village back in the day because it was the thing to do back then... to be blunt - it's not my fault. Like I said. Let's look at how things are right here and now, and put in place measures the correct any shortcomings - on both sides. I've long maintained that women are the most fascinating creatures I know.

I've been lucky enough to surround myself with good people and be able to really talk to them in depth about anything at all. There are one or two on KB that I absolutely love to talk with because of their view on the world. They have brains, they are keen of thought, and they are almost invariably women.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the views of men. I do - I just happen to have most of them already. I have the most to gain - the most to learn - from women. Why the hell would I want to deny myself of that... and like any zealot, I'm keen to convert others to my point of view.

I'd also suggest women of similar mind find those few men capable of talking about anything and everything and explore their minds. Find what's in there and why. Tis a fun place to be.

... pet topic - you were warned.

[ManDownUnder]

Hoi I object....i prefer it when tall blokes use my head as an arm rest whilst holding their beer

Stop sticking the beers down your cleavage then...

[Her_C4]

Feminism should be a doctrine recognising and enabling the equal value and position of women as individuals and in society at large. .... and whole lot of REALLY good points

Too often this whole topic becomes a "How can I best get them back for the years of mistreatment" issue which is total BS. Accept things for how they are as of right now, address any shortcomings - and move forward.

Yes - BS indeed, although I believe that you would be hard pressed to find any 'thinking' woman in this day and age that seriously believes we (as a gender), need to 'get back' at anyone... for anything.... in this regard. Bugger! As I typed that one seriously came to mind. As you were.

So how do I answer this as an elderly male with his formative years back in the late 50's.

Very carefully is probably the best way.

Personally I see feminism as the it originated as the statement I changed into red text. Something i have wholeheartily agreed with most of my adult life.

The blue text is the impression of where , in my perception , feminism has seemed to be going in the last decade

The green text is where I would like it to go in the future.

Not the most enlightening answer but one hopefully that wont get my head chewed off by those members of the blue yext brigade.

I hope not too

The balance is a difficult one to obtain, but it is not impossible. However, it requires a certain amount of intelligence which quite often is not present amongst a lot of individuals, irrespective of gender, nationality or even economic status.

But not impossible indeed .....

Bring back John Wayne and Clark Gable, I say!!!

YES

Women with opinions are cute.

:REALLY? I have a few and I am (as always) happy to share .... he he he

If you mean women with brains and well formed opinions then we are are of similar mind grasshopper...

Nice response....

Well, sure. Just so long as they're short enough to pat on the head when necessary. Positive reinforcement is an important part of training.

They can be trained?

Sigh......

no not really - dunno' where he got that idea from... been around trying to teach too many old dogs I guess?

shit then I must be damn cute, because I am accused of being an opinionated bitch often!

You are darlin' you are

I belive in equality no matter what gender/religion/physicality/what the fuck ever other compartment you want to put someone in...

so why do (happily over generalising here) people assume that because (for example) we want equal pay - for an equal days work that we are feminists?

Well I was going to woffle on, but I really don't need to, you sir said everything that I was going to type, thanks for saving me the effort, I have dishes to wash (kidding), I love you and want to have your babies (again kidding).
.

(Phew! Thank goodness for notes in parenthesis)

[Riff Raff]

I don't associate myself with the word 'feminist'. I'm just me, enjoying being a woman and all that entails. So sometimes I've been in the kitchen cooking my man some eggs, and others I've been out being a hooligan on a motorycle, or scuba diving, or skydiving or doing any of the other 'dangerous boy sports' (as my mum calls them) that take my fancy. I'm still feminine, but I'm having lots of fun.

[Rosie]

To me, simply put, feminisim is about equality in all aspects of life, equal rights, and equal choices, not just for women but for men also, it's no longer a 'the women against the men' thing, but about equality and respect for all.

personally I prefer the term gender equality to feminism.

I think to a degree, feminism has been a victim of its own success. In NZ almost all the glaring inequalities towards women have been addressed. The sorts of gender issues we have tend to be more subtle, complex, and are as likely to be directed towards men. With a lack of big issues that all women can relate to, feminism is going to home in on the smaller, more difficult issues, this will tend to magnify the extreme political/sociological/whatever views that some people have about feminism and women's rights, making women with more moderate views feeling that they can't really relate to feminism.

[ManDownUnder]

Yes - BS indeed, although I believe that you would be hard pressed to find any 'thinking' woman in this day and age that seriously believes we (as a gender), need to 'get back' at anyone... for anything.... in this regard. Bugger! As I typed that one seriously came to mind. As you were.

LOL... yes they are out there. The ocassional social handgrenade just waiting to go off in the face of unsuspecting penis bearers LOL.

My all time favourite - at Massey University (PN) book shop. I get to a glass door that opened towards me just as someone else did so I opened it and waited for them to come through... common courtesy ... no?

Apparently not. It was yet another affront to her already subjugated existnce in patriarcal... blah blah blah. She went right off at me... so I did the decent thing - cut her off walked through and made sure the door was closed behind me so she'd have to do the whole damned thing herself.

To this day I'm glad she did it. It gave me plenty to think about, and a story I'll carry for the rest of my life. Part of me pities her though. I didn't take the time (or get the chance) to understand her side of the story.

To get the example and reframe it to what I would like to see happen... she would have stepped through - then held the door for me. THAT'S equality

[Blue Velvet]

"Feminism - I myself have never known what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West, 1913

That pretty much sums it up for me.

I am me. I’ll change my own engine oil. Cook your own dinner.

I find it extremely disappointing when people do or will not think or act for themselves. I don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles.

I like to know how to do things for myself. On the other hand, I won't hesitate to ask for help. But not because I want someone else to do the work for me, rather, I want to learn how to do things myself. But I am a female.

Has tools. Will travel. $0.02

[BIHB@0610]

:With a lack of big issues that all women can relate to, feminism is going to home in on the smaller, more difficult issues, this will tend to magnify the extreme political/sociological/whatever views that some people have about feminism and women's rights, making women with more moderate views feeling that they can't really relate to feminism.

I agree - women with moderate views may feel that they can't relate to feminism - if they perceive it to be strong minded and antagonistic. But to me, feminism/ecofeminism is about understanding why we have arrived at the place we have, what forces have shaped our constitutions, our laws, our societal constructs.

Before we can move forward we have to understand where we've come from - and understand without blame.

I absolutely agree that because someone's great great grandfather burned a village it's nothing to do with the descendents living now - but it's the thinking behind those actions, years ago, that fed into the society we have now.

As individuals it might be easier (and the only thing possible) to keep it simple and view all people equally, but as a society we need to look at our policies and our laws to ensure that the future reflects our new understanding of the past. That's probably down to policy analysts in central government rather than individuals!

[Coyote]

"In Manhood Redux, C.H. Freedman writes of the "ultimate discrimination" in his chapter entitled "Arlington Cemetery: The Ultimate Male- Chauvinist Preserve." There, he relates men's horror stories of war, comparing them to women's "horror stories" of sexism. Essentially a comparison of male grief to female anger, he demonstrates well how much more value our society assigns to female anger.

For the indignity of being called "little girl," he notes, many courts "are wont to assume" it's "worth perhaps $50,000 in compensation." (Manhood Redux, C.H. Freedman, p 135) But how much, he asks, was it worth for frightened young draftees in Vietnam to be told they were going to be used as bait?

How much is it worth to be told your life is worth less than a can of worms or a dozen frozen bait herring? How much, to hear members of the opposite sex tell you your healthy sexual desires are bad because you're a heterosexual male? How much, to suffer hundreds of rejections by members of the opposite sex?

During the past 25 years, these have contributed to the grief men commonly feel: rejection, denigration, callous dismissal. How much are they worth?

Few women want to hear about this because then they'd have to confront that, contrary to the popular pop-feminist message that men deserve to be treated like inhuman, rapacious beasts, we bleed, we hurt, often women make us cry, and we die. "

Wise words.

I haven't been rejected, mainly because I've such low self esteem that I've only ever once asked 1 girl out (100% success rate ), but I've been led on many times into believing a girl has liked me but really I'm either 1: only on a list of guys that they like but they'll only get to me after being rejected by the other's higher on the list or 2: they love comanding attention.

I haven't seen women being repressed ever, thought I've grown up in the aftermath of the feminazi revolution. I've only seen girls that are overly confident and are happy to play with guys feelings, sleep with whichever of the lot, then another, and another, then go back to the first one, and aspire to become playboy pin-ups. There's been a few exceptions, one being my girlfriend, but she just admitted to me that she went around and basically was the type of girl I despised before she met me.

If only I had read this when I was 13, I wouldn't be nearly so spiteful if I had've known: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Friend_Zone

[jrandom]

I haven't been rejected, mainly because I've such low self esteem that I've only ever once asked 1 girl out...

If only I had read this when I was 13, I wouldn't be nearly so spiteful...

[James Deuce]

There are at least 4 dominant schools of "Feminist" thought, some dogma, some deeply intellectual and at least 1 that is eminently practical.

Which would you have us discuss? The First wave of feminist thought that still dominates the NZ scene? Or Fourth Wave thinkers like Susan Faludi, who operate on the basis of recognising gender difference in a way that allows women to participate in traditional male spheres of operation by modifying the environment they work in, but enforcing cultural and social equality for women?

There's been significant progress in applied feminist schools of thought that have bypassed NZ completely. NZ's retarded attitude to feminism is borne out in the attitudes of some of the more strident KB feminists who insist that men should be punished for the sins of their forefathers.

[Trudes]

I don't associate myself with the word 'feminist'. I'm just me, enjoying being a woman and all that entails. So sometimes I've been in the kitchen cooking my man some eggs, and others I've been out being a hooligan on a motorycle, or scuba diving, or skydiving or doing any of the other 'dangerous boy sports' (as my mum calls them) that take my fancy. I'm still feminine, but I'm having lots of fun.

And because of some "raving feminists" in the past, you get to choose to do those things.