Interesting development in OZ for 125GP class

[onearmedbandit]

I think the figures posted by Diesel Pig are closer to the truth......

Cool, could you inform every site on the internet that they are wrong then. Because every search I've done on the 2002 RC211V shows a max power output of 220hp, from Honda's own info through to tests done by magazines at the end of the 2002 season. In the later years of the RC211V they were getting 240hp...... (edited because I forgot the '......')

[xr-rider]

there is no way in hell the honda 250 motor is going to be competitive. as for emmisions on a 2st they would probably be less than a F1 car or something like that, i say BRING BACK THE BIG 2ST

[Dodgy]

Doohan on a screamer NSR. Now there was something impressive to watch.

yeah man, remember that year we saw him lose it on turn 1. Shit, that was cool!

Anyways, 2 strokes still have their uses - Hyaundi have the worlds largest and most powerful engine - huge ass 2 stroke diesel powering some supertanker.

Shame some riders may never experience the thrill of a 2 stroke driving hard - and the pucker of feeling it seize up!

[Cleve]

there is no way in hell the honda 250 motor is going to be competitive.

just wondering... in off road isn't the 250 4st quicker than the 125 2st? Why could this not happen in road racing.

[F5 Dave]

125MX bike with nice power spread say 32hp (rear wheel not brochure hp). 250 MX 4 stroke, about the same with a better spread. Compromise is the 250 is sailing closer to the edge of reliability & revs harder.

125 GP is near edge but reliable if fed parts at correct intervals. Revs about 3000 rpm higher than MX bike. A customer 125 2008 Aprilia I dunno 45hp? (50+ for factory bike).

How high is the 250 going to have to rev to match the power?
Factory bikes may run up there, but. . .

OK on the other side the 990s had almost 250cc cylinders, but these are set up as multis which are intrinsically smoother & designed for higher revs. I think the 250MX engine would be a poor base to try to rev higher. A twin or phantom twin (Duc supermono) would be a better basis.

[cowpoos]

250mx engines already rev at 13,000rpm...these engines will definatly be tuned different for GP type racing...

So comparing MX engines to Roadrace GP engines won't be a relivent comparison... and if it were...the 250 fourstrokes are making more power everywhere in the rev range...which I suspect will be the case in a GP chassis.

I seriously doubt the people instigating this change to 4stroke bikes would contemplate it if they didn't have a good product to sell...I doubt its all about tree hugging emissions levels...

[avgas]

Moriwaki still exist?!
Wow thats awesome.
Now all we need is new Harris frames

[gav]

Cool, could you inform every site on the internet that they are wrong then. Because every search I've done on the 2002 RC211V shows a max power output of 220hp, from Honda's own info through to tests done by magazines at the end of the 2002 season. In the later years of the RC211V they were getting 240hp...... (edited because I forgot the '......')

No, thats fine, but the 500's weren't putting out over 200.
Don't think Dorna/FIM killed off the two strokes, in fact the 500's were eligible to race with the 990's, and have only been disallowed with the change to 800cc.
What would be interesting would to see how the latest tyres would perform on the 500's along with the latest electronics. Probably why they have been outlawed from racing with the 800's.

[xr-rider]

just wondering... in off road isn't the 250 4st quicker than the 125 2st? Why could this not happen in road racing.

but in off road a 125 really needs the power all the way through the rev range and cause its a small motor it doesn't have much power. with a 250 4st it puts out more power all the way through and plenty of bottom end so they have an edge on stop start tracks. in road racing a 125 2st puts out more than the standard 250 4st motor honda are using and the 125s will have it all up top while the 250s wile have less power up top and weigh more.

[quallman1234]

Give em a year i hate too say it because im a 2 stroke fan, but unfortunately if you look at a 2 stroke engine, you can quickly figure out that no 2 stroke engine can be two times more efficent than a 4 stroke of the same capacity. For instance in Beach racing they class that two strokes are about 1.8 Times more powerful than a 4 stroke the same size. Even the most tuned 2 stroke engines, will still loose some because of simpleness that it is shoving unburnt gas out the exhaust port before the spark occurs.

Direct Injection Could be a goer but this would require heaps of petrol to be put into the cylinder at precisely the right time and very quickly. Essentially a rather large compressor/pump/whatever capable of shoving fuel in at around about 500psi (That's what the Yamaha High pressure direct injection engine use on the marine engines). - Trust me i have researched alot.

But then again with low capacity engine's 2 stroke's might still have a fighting chance.

[gav]

I'm picking the 250 four stroke will "grunt" off the line, and beat the two stroke to the first corner, then park its fat arse in the way, hold up the two stroke and then fark to the next corner etc.
This what happened to the likes of the Aprilia 400 and Team KR with the V3, theoretically it could lap faster, but never got the chance.

[cowpoos]

but in off road a 125 really needs the power all the way through the rev range and cause its a small motor it doesn't have much power. with a 250 4st it puts out more power all the way through and plenty of bottom end so they have an edge on stop start tracks. in road racing a 125 2st puts out more than the standard 250 4st motor honda are using and the 125s will have it all up top while the 250s wile have less power up top and weigh more.

So you don't think they will tune the 4 stroke for circut racing??
I think they definatly will....but if they don't...I really don't think it would matter...the 4 stroke will still beable to pull taller gearing with better over acceleration!

And don't get me wrong people..I love 2 strokes..I have raced dirt bikes of both genre's...infact I was racing a xr280..when my peers were on 125 two strokes..so I was against the trend at the time..The two strokes had a definate acceleration advantage..and weight..for some reason..I placed very highly on the xr280 at times..as soon as I got a kx125..piffft..shit..I placed crap..different riding style,etc but mainly..so much more work to do!! I mean your working the clutch..banging through the gears..correcting the tail wagging because she didn't hook up to well when the engine was on it!!..and it seems I wasn't that adaptable....but I realised...the smaller two stroke..while less physically demanding it was to ride..you were just so dam busy on the thing..and you couldn't bully it around as much with your weight..the four stroke was more physical to ride..heavier..brakes wern'tr as good..made heaps of power everywhere[well at the time it did]..and it was easier to ride..you got away with more..you had less to do to ride the bike..making mistakes less frequent..and when you made one..no big deal..riding techqunic was easier [IMHO] even though is require more grunt to push it around..you did less of it..and you could bully it with your weight!!

And the reflection I see with road racing is the same..less to do..not as busy..gives you more time to think what your doing!..mistakes are less of a disadvantage..promotes More modern riding styles on the track..[<--now thats going to get a few reply's..maybe I should start a new thread on that..lol]..having a motor that is well built with a nice power build..plenty of mid range and not massive abruptness in power increases as you go though the rev range make a bike easier to ride..I have learnt this in my first 2 seasons club racing in F1..
But thats enough from me for a bit..

[steveyb]

Heh.
Now here is a blast from the past. Was looking for some info and this thread came up.
Quite amusing to read ones opinions from the past and how they were shaped by the current climate and ones own agendas.
At the time I had a vested interest in 125GP 2-stroke machinery.
That is quite different to now I guess.
Also very interesting to see how the Pre-Moto3 and Moto3 bikes are now eclipsing 125GP bikes (other than perhaps factory Aprilia machines).

[BMWST?]

Give em a year i hate too say it because im a 2 stroke fan, but unfortunately if you look at a 2 stroke engine, you can quickly figure out that no 2 stroke engine can be two times more efficent than a 4 stroke of the same capacity. For instance in Beach racing they class that two strokes are about 1.8 Times more powerful than a 4 stroke the same size. Even the most tuned 2 stroke engines, will still loose some because of simpleness that it is shoving unburnt gas out the exhaust port before the spark occurs.

Direct Injection Could be a goer but this would require heaps of petrol to be put into the cylinder at precisely the right time and very quickly. Essentially a rather large compressor/pump/whatever capable of shoving fuel in at around about 500psi (That's what the Yamaha High pressure direct injection engine use on the marine engines). - Trust me i have researched alot.

But then again with low capacity engine's 2 stroke's might still have a fighting chance.

easy.modern crd diesls operate at higher pressures than than and have injection systems that fire multiple times.Prolly a fraction of the speed tho!