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Thread: Staggered formation is wrong

  1. #46
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    This thread needs an age limit of around 40. This is a discussion for old farts only.


    Since I'm in that age bracket I'll add my 2 sense worth.

    When riding staggered I always keep in the mirrors of the rider in front of me.

    Also, when going round corners in a staggered formation, each rider should not have to take the same line, if you do, then abandon the staggered formation and move the "tits out" formation.
    Some things are worth dying for, living is one of them.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoroJ View Post
    Group riding is all about common sense.

    I find with riders I know and am comfortable with, the gap may close a bit and as for staggered or not, it usually comes down to the type of ride, nature of the road and speed.

    Most rides tend to stagger at slower speeds and on straighter roads but spread and fall into single file on narrow or 'interesting roads as riders fall into their own pace.

    I might ask here, "When has any Welly rider gone over the Rimutakas in a staggered formation"? (and that goes for your favourite road wherever you come from)
    I ride in a staggered formation with the group(s) that I tend to ride with. 2 second rule applies to all vehicles in your lane (ie if I am riding towards the centre line, I am 2 seconds or more behind the bike on my left and 4 seconds (or more) behind the bike taking a similar line ahead of me). Always ride your own ride and your own corners.

    AND I have nearly always ridden with said group(s) over the Rimutaka hill in in formation but then I guess I am old so and I don't ride a jappa so probably my opinion is worth only $0.01 cent). Oh who cares - you can have it for free....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatjim View Post
    This thread needs an age limit of around 40. This is a discussion for old farts only.


    Since I'm in that age bracket I'll add my 2 sense worth.

    When riding staggered I always keep in the mirrors of the rider in front of me.

    Also, when going round corners in a staggered formation, each rider should not have to take the same line, if you do, then abandon the staggered formation and move the "tits out" formation.
    Jeesh - see above comments re age. I gave the 'old fart' perspective then.

    I am not sure what exactly the 'tits out' formation is Jim? I have been known on really hot days to often undo the zipper on my leather jacket - does that count??

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  3. #48
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    Re:the appearance of 1 or 2 headlights approaching. There was an old teaching many years ago (1986ish) with the defensive driving course that used the headlight appearance of oncoming cars to estimate safe passing distances at night. If the car was far enough away, the headlights would appear to be almost together, and appear as one. As the oncoming car got closer, the headlight beams would be distinguishable as 2 seperate beams, then the oncoming car would be too close to attempt a passing manouver....Now, take motorcycles approaching in evening or low light situations. Having beams close together will give oncoming cage the appearance that motorbikes are further away than they actually are. I would suggest that 1 bike in each wheel track is best, to give the appearance of a normal width vehicle, and make it aesier for the cages to comprehend.

    And the 2 or 4 second gap is luxury...I have a background in NZ representative cycling...there the gaps ae 2 cm, front and side...sometimes elbows touching.....and sometimes at similar speed to a motorbike....and wearing lycra underwear and a polystyrene helmet!!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabiker View Post
    ..there the gaps ae 2 cm, front and side...sometimes elbows touching.....and sometimes at similar speed to a motorbike....and wearing lycra underwear and a polystyrene helmet!!
    And no-one crashes or gets headbutted at all

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Velvet View Post
    I thought one of the main reasons for riding in staggered formation is to make it more obvious to cage drivers that there's more than one bike... If you're riding single file they may not see the bike behind etc.
    Valid point. And if you are in a group of two, I suggest that the lead bike sits in the right wheel track, following bike in the left...because for a following cager both bikes are obvious. From the cage driver's perspective, if the bikes are the other way round, the lead bike may be obscured by the follower. If the cager overtakes, there shouldn't be any surprises insofaras he may push in because he thinks there is a space there.
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zapf View Post
    staggered while on a stright road is fine. But on twisties and bends we tend to change back to single file. More room that way to avoide the potholes and what not on the road
    Always travel staggered, never, never ride directly behind another scooter, 1 he will most likely not see you in his mirrors, or if he swings his head round will more than likely miss seeing you as no ones neck can do 180 turn, by being staggered the scoot in front can see you, also if he has to brake hard you are less likely to rear end him. on corners always give the guy in front room to take his own line without worry of you getting along side him or on his inside as it will seriously effect his line on the corner
    Just another rider from the Dark side

  7. #52
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    Good thing most of us don't ride scooters then.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Good thing most of us don't ride scooters then.
    Ah yes you lot don't call your Motorcycles Scoots or Scooters, Sorry maybe I should have Harley Davidson or Triumph America
    Just another rider from the Dark side

  9. #54
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    warewolf I find it amusing and sad that when I move from a more dangerous position to a safer position, the rider behind will often expose themselves to unnecessary danger by moving closer to the hazard I've just moved away from! All because they are more fixated on riding in 'staggered formation' than they are about really thinking about what they are doing and their own safety.
    I was gobsmacked when I first experienced this in club riding. Most of my riding had been solo, or in two's and threes. I'd never experienced anyone doing that behind me on a bike, it would never happen among strangers.

    A note on the changing lanes or lines
    grub Regarding the left hand wheel track, I often use it quite deliberately. Coming up to an intersection with cars waiting or approaching from the left, I move left so I'm not masked or hidden by the car in front of me. I also flick my light onto full beam (if it's not there already)
    (and then move away again..) This is critical stuff, and if you can't move like this then you have to slow down more on the approach. I would add that the same applies when going though on a multi-lane where you are on the lane next to the rightmost or filter lane and there is traffic waiting to turn right, possibly in both directions. Here, move to the left to put yourself in view of possibly obscured right-turning vehicles looking at perhaps an empty lane 1 (and 2) which means it looks good to go to them. It gives me the willies watching a bike go on an unmodulated speed and course through in the rightmost lane past traffic waiting to turn both ways....
    Also, the act of moving across the line of sight from the perspective of the oncoming vehicles that can already sight you will actually make you more visible. There's been comments already about the difficulty of assessing distance, especially with lights. At each moment the scene is assessed, your position will appear to have changed more than a vehicle maintaining a steady course, and that will typically be simply assessed as more speed. In my experience, the chances of registering on the other drivers' radar at all, or becoming a perceived hazard, go up greatly by using this lateral movement.

    My view? Single file and staggered, but never in formation.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mowgli View Post
    which equates to about one and a half seconds. Where in hell did they come up with that figure I wonder
    Probably double the average human reaction time of 0.75 seconds.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RT527 View Post
    Not quite correct your missing the point that the other person , the one thats staggered may not be able to maintain his lane within his lane.....
    I'm not convinced you're wrong on this point but is this not like saying that the car in the lane beside you may not be able to stay in their lane?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

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  12. #57
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    I think it a compromise, I understand where Werewolf is coming from, and it makes sense if all bikes are close ie less than 2 seconds apart, as you cannot get in another bikes way when cornering, basic bike rule#1

    It makes sense when travelling fast that you are seconds plus behind when travelling in groups and also stay staggered, why, because from my own experience.... we had the sun behind us, my mate in front braked hard, the sun was so bright on his reflecting taillight I did not know he had braked, if it wasnt for the fact, I was staggered, It may have been hard to have swerved to miss him.
    Full concentration when close, when tired, open up the gap and allow more room for errors

  13. #58
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    all I can comment is, from riding staggered formation in the 80's with as many a 90 bikes!
    With a road captain setting the pace, sergents taking care of the center, and Tail end charlies at the end,
    I can remember moving large , controlled numbers of riders in staggered formation without problems from Invercargill to the Cape and everywhere inbetween! Minimum fuss, max distance covered, Know your place!
    The biggest problem I see is that you fuckers dont like having somebody in the front leading telling you what speed to STAY AT!!!
    There an is attitude that that is comming out in these posts, EGO!
    To ride in a staggered formation, you need to enforce ALL members of the pack to ride the right way, enforce rules that EVERYBODY sticks with.
    I hear that KB'ers have a bad rep for group rides, too many fall off!
    only because your fuckin egos dont let somebody be in control!
    New riders would be safe, if communication, respect, co-operation and awareness that group riding is a skill with rules.
    Staggered formation is only the formation, its the agreement to stay where you are in the pack, dont overtake, stick to the max speed agreed upon.
    Yes , cages, B trains, Tankers, Lights all break up a ride, but there is no need for those that get stuck behind these obsticles to Fang it to catch up!
    You will catch up because the lead group it get stuck behind the same obsticle and be slowed down!
    Sheesch!
    Just as we have to learn skills to ride on the road safley, being aware of the dangers etc, the skills that allow a pack of 4 or 90 need to also be learnt.
    4 riders will understand each other very easily, 40 need to set rules, 100 riders can be achieved with a minimum of fuss if communication is there.
    We are lucky in that this age allows us the communication of cell phones, and or radios head sets.
    Kiwi Bikers could become the safest riders on the road, the example for others to follow.
    We are a group that ranges in age from 15 to 85! WHY THE FUCK CANT WE GET IT TOGEATHER !!!


    This is my opinion and not a flame to any posts previously made

    Enjoy your ride friends... safley!
    To be old and wise, first you must be young and stupid.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subike View Post
    all I can comment is, from riding staggered formation in the 80's with as many a 90 bikes!
    With a road captain setting the pace, sergents taking care of the center, and Tail end charlies at the end,
    I can remember moving large , controlled numbers of riders in staggered formation without problems from Invercargill to the Cape and everywhere inbetween! Minimum fuss, max distance covered, Know your place!
    The biggest problem I see is that you fuckers dont like having somebody in the front leading telling you what speed to STAY AT!!!
    There an is attitude that that is comming out in these posts, EGO!
    To ride in a staggered formation, you need to enforce ALL members of the pack to ride the right way, enforce rules that EVERYBODY sticks with.
    I hear that KB'ers have a bad rep for group rides, too many fall off!
    only because your fuckin egos dont let somebody be in control!
    New riders would be safe, if communication, respect, co-operation and awareness that group riding is a skill with rules.
    Staggered formation is only the formation, its the agreement to stay where you are in the pack, dont overtake, stick to the max speed agreed upon.
    Yes , cages, B trains, Tankers, Lights all break up a ride, but there is no need for those that get stuck behind these obsticles to Fang it to catch up!
    You will catch up because the lead group it get stuck behind the same obsticle and be slowed down!
    Sheesch!
    Just as we have to learn skills to ride on the road safley, being aware of the dangers etc, the skills that allow a pack of 4 or 90 need to also be learnt.
    4 riders will understand each other very easily, 40 need to set rules, 100 riders can be achieved with a minimum of fuss if communication is there.
    We are lucky in that this age allows us the communication of cell phones, and or radios head sets.
    Kiwi Bikers could become the safest riders on the road, the example for others to follow.
    We are a group that ranges in age from 15 to 85! WHY THE FUCK CANT WE GET IT TOGEATHER !!!


    This is my opinion and not a flame to any posts previously made

    Enjoy your ride friends... safley!
    Makes sense to me.

    Ride safetly and live to ride another day.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by warewolf View Post

    The answer of course, is single file at 2 seconds, plus breaks in the group to allow following vehicles to pass. That way every rider is at the optimum position on the road without compromise. This has been the accepted group riding strategy since at least the early eighties, as taught by Stay Upright Motorcycle Techniques.

    What say you?
    if the following vehicles are passing the group your either riding too slowly or driving out west.

    both of these are more damaging to your health then riding in staggered formation at the speed posted on a sign multiplied by two and plus ten.

    eg the safe speed to travel around a blind 35km/h corner is 80...




    if you are 2 seconds behind the person in the staggered position and 4 seconds behind the person directly infront of you why worry?

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