white power

[onearmedbandit]

Good point Tony. I'm over the moon with the Ohlins shock (along with the Ohlins steering dampner) I off bought off RT for the thou, noticeable improvement right away. Now I can't afford a set of Ohlins forks, but I can afford to get the standard front suspenders tickled up. I know where they will be going (once I can convince myself to take the bike off the road).

[Robert Taylor]

Something our local staunch LABOUR supporter wont mention is that although he is strongly pushing the Ohlins barrow he is also able to improve even the most primitive of front susspenders --even Shineray

Youre successfully winding me up! There is just no help for the most primitively insane ''Government'' in our history. Roll on election day.

[FROSTY:Me]

Lmao ohh Rob you are so predictable.
None the less-theres a shineray front end heading your way once the nats are over with.

[trustme]

You hope for a labour win so everyone fucks off to OZ so RT has no clients = lead time for work on your shit bucket is reduced.
There is method in your madness!!!
Just doesn't alter the fact you are still mad. IMHO

[JD Racing]

Thankyou for interpreting correctly what I was driving at! If I can be accused of paranoia its just that anyone in this country can at anytime in any trade set themselves up as an ''expert'', whilst I have some sympathy for the reforms of the free market we have in many ways gone too far. With respect to the field of suspension I think it is now well and truly justified as a trade in itself and there absolutely should be controls so that no 5 minute experts can get their hands on something with the potential to kill. .

I admire the sentiment but how you would achieve that I don't know, worldwide there is only Racetech that offer any form of formal training for guys off the street, I've never been on one of their courses but I would think it more involves marketing the Thede doctrine than anything else. A lot of distributors of all brands are staffed and run by people who are simply parts fitters, I would say that someone like yourslef who actually knows what he's talking about is the exception to the rule.

[FROSTY:Me]

You hope for a labour win so everyone fucks off to OZ so RT has no clients = lead time for work on your shit bucket is reduced.
There is method in your madness!!!
Just doesn't alter the fact you are still mad. IMHO

-Yea --last one out turn the lights out.

[Robert Taylor]

I admire the sentiment but how you would achieve that I don't know, worldwide there is only Racetech that offer any form of formal training for guys off the street, I've never been on one of their courses but I would think it more involves marketing the Thede doctrine than anything else. A lot of distributors of all brands are staffed and run by people who are simply parts fitters, I would say that someone like yourslef who actually knows what he's talking about is the exception to the rule.

Yes and well.....a formal motorcycle apprenticeship in NZ ( and the rest of the world ) only covers the very basics of suspension. And nor probably should it do more so as this has become a specialist field that is a whole trade in itself.

A Race Tech course does give a good insight but make an instant suspension expert overnight it patently does not. And as you have intimated it is indeed from one perspective and with limitations. Its good, but frankly I have personally learnt a great deal more by many trips to the Ohlins factory in Sweden. And there is so much that as you well know is not in a textbook. I beleive that only after about 6-8 years of working full time stripping and valving suspension units do you even start to become an expert. That must neccessarily be allied with in the field set up experience. And even then, working with dirt bike suspension can be a polar opposite to working with road race or auto suspension for downforce cars etc. YOU DO NOT STOP LEARNING IN THIS GAME and there are forever ongoing improvements that are made.

Maybe there are derisory comments from time to time that we are seen at tracks revalving shocks in our trailer, that this is ''taking it to the extreme'' Well, this is doing no more than what suspension technicians do at MotoGP, WSBK, AMA etc. Be it WP, Ohlins, Penske or works Showa, KYB etc. Everyone is trying to find a few tenths here and there.

I can vouch that ''taking it to the extreme'' by revalving on site has taught me a hell of a lot, more than any course could equip me with.

[JD Racing]

I can vouch that ''taking it to the extreme'' by revalving on site has taught me a hell of a lot, more than any course could equip me with.

What you really need is a good rider that thinks he knows what he wants and talks a good job and complains incessantly so you chase your arse trying stuff that you know should work, stuff you know won't work, stuff you think might work, and stuff you hope and pray might work, go round in circles a few times, get nowhere then he gets a new girlfriend/boyfriend/sheep starts getting laid regularly and suddenly the bike is perfect. Having been through that a million and one times my all night sessions revalving at the track are no longer...good quality external adjusters with a broad working range are the way for me.

[Robert Taylor]

What you really need is a good rider that thinks he knows what he wants and talks a good job and complains incessantly so you chase your arse trying stuff that you know should work, stuff you know won't work, stuff you think might work, and stuff you hope and pray might work, go round in circles a few times, get nowhere then he gets a new girlfriend/boyfriend/sheep starts getting laid regularly and suddenly the bike is perfect. Having been through that a million and one times my all night sessions revalving at the track are no longer...good quality external adjusters with a broad working range are the way for me.

I hear what you are saying but in spite of what you wish for ( and what some have fooled themselves into beleiving ) there is no such shock. Every shock made still has alternative inner valving and bleed bypass specs and of course will still require alternative springs for different weight riders. If the spring change is substanial then of course it needs a different rebound stack etc. Just a week ago I traded an American shock with a supposedly broad adjustment range against a TTX36. Fitment of that TTX36 instantly yielded better finishing results for the rider. In fact the clicker setting range on that TTX36 is just as broad and a whole lot easier to understand. A dyno is not required to view the combinations of curves because Ohlins have done all the work for you.

[JD Racing]

I hear what you are saying but in spite of what you wish for ( and what some have fooled themselves into beleiving ) there is no such shock. Every shock made still has alternative inner valving and bleed bypass specs and of course will still require alternative springs for different weight riders. If the spring change is substanial then of course it needs a different rebound stack etc. Just a week ago I traded an American shock with a supposedly broad adjustment range against a TTX36. Fitment of that TTX36 instantly yielded better finishing results for the rider. In fact the clicker setting range on that TTX36 is just as broad and a whole lot easier to understand. A dyno is not required to view the combinations of curves because Ohlins have done all the work for you.

If you have a shock basic design that has not changed for a number of years, your going to the same tracks that you've always been to, you operate in the same temperature spectrum you've always worked in, tyres only grip a tiny fraction more every year, power only goes up a small amount each year, what changes are there that need such drastic action every weekend?

[Robert Taylor]

If you have a shock basic design that has not changed for a number of years, your going to the same tracks that you've always been to, you operate in the same temperature spectrum you've always worked in, tyres only grip a tiny fraction more every year, power only goes up a small amount each year, what changes are there that need such drastic action every weekend?

I never at any time stated that ''drastic action was needed every weekend'' The fact of the matter is nothing stands still re technology ( with most progressive companies anyway ) Up until last year we were running Traxxion cartridges. We slowly changed over to Ohlins 25mm FGK cartridges last year and this year have sold a whole bunch of them. Now that we have embraced the concept of ''bending shim stack midvalve'' and learnt how to tune them it is clear to everyone using them that they are a great leap forward from the 20mm stuff with checkplate midvalves. Andrew Stroud was running WP up until last year is now using Ohlins FGK and loves how they work plus the fact we are happy to instal ongoing improvements trackside.

With the rear ends TTX36, these work quite differently to dampers that rely totally on shaft displacement to move oil and therefore ''build damping'' I learnt some new techniques whilst helping Ohlins with Philip Island tests in January and have been applying those principles during our road race nationals. At all 3 rounds the 1000cc and 600cc class lap records have been broken, with in some cases several riders under the lap record, and it is not because the bikes are more powerful!

Nothing wrong with doing the hard yards to improve lap times?

Interestingly I spoke to the 2 American riders racing here who told me that they are in the States using US made suspension components. They say that the Ohlins stuff they are using here blows it out of the water and that the Yankee shocks are finicky to set up. Having dynoed these shocks I can understand how people have trouble, especially understanding the ''overlap'' of low speed and high speed settings. As a suspension engineer yourself you will know exactly what I am referring to. It is not the holy grail some think it is, quite the opposite.

The fact is here in NZ it is perhaps a little akin to being in Siberia. There is no -one next door to lean on so much has to be learnt by oneself. I could take the easy route and do nothing and then everything would be mediocre, but my parents instilled a solid work ethic. If in my own way I have helped to raise the level of suspension understanding here in this banana republic then well and good, it has also raised riders expectations. If that is going to produce better road racers then great.

[greenman]

Hi,
Am I correct in stating the the holy grail of damping is for it to be proportional to velocity.
that is : D=K.v
But in reality, due to visocity and turbulance of the oil flow some highly non-linear effects happen which mean that the damping is now proportional to velocity squared and cubed.
D=K.v+J.v.v + L.v.v.v
K, J and L being constants.

And that all the shim stacks, bleed holes and valving is trying to do is instill some linear behaviour in the fluid damping?

So, why don't Ohlins etc put some electronics around the standard damper to control the valving and get some better control of the damping. Surely it would come down to a simple PID type control loop?
I've worked on Rexroth valve controls and they were doing it 20 years ago with analog electronic circuits. These were on big rams and hydralic motors, but the same type of valve control is surely possible with ity bity dampers?

[Tony.OK]

Hi,
Am I correct in stating the the holy grail of damping is for it to be proportional to velocity.
that is : D=K.v
But in reality, due to visocity and turbulance of the oil flow some highly non-linear effects happen which mean that the damping is now proportional to velocity squared and cubed.
D=K.v+J.v.v + L.v.v.v
K, J and L being constants.

And that all the shim stacks, bleed holes and valving is trying to do is instill some linear behaviour in the fluid damping?

So, why don't Ohlins etc put some electronics around the standard damper to control the valving and get some better control of the damping. Surely it would come down to a simple PID type control loop?
I've worked on Rexroth valve controls and they were doing it 20 years ago with analog electronic circuits. These were on big rams and hydralic motors, but the same type of valve control is surely possible with ity bity dampers?

[Sollyboy]

Hi,
Am I correct in stating the the holy grail of damping is for it to be proportional to velocity.
that is : D=K.v
But in reality, due to visocity and turbulance of the oil flow some highly non-linear effects happen which mean that the damping is now proportional to velocity squared and cubed.
D=K.v+J.v.v + L.v.v.v
K, J and L being constants.

And that all the shim stacks, bleed holes and valving is trying to do is instill some linear behaviour in the fluid damping?

So, why don't Ohlins etc put some electronics around the standard damper to control the valving and get some better control of the damping. Surely it would come down to a simple PID type control loop?
I've worked on Rexroth valve controls and they were doing it 20 years ago with analog electronic circuits. These were on big rams and hydralic motors, but the same type of valve control is surely possible with ity bity dampers?

I saw a mountain bike shock that was sorta electronic , it automatically regulated somehow, and there was a shock on some aircraft similar to a TL1000 shock (rotary damper) and it had very very fine metal particles in the oil , more or less damping was dialed up in milli seconds by magnetising the metal laden oil with an electric coil, is that what you mean?shock and forks work very well considering there simplicty , better than they should in a way just like good old fashioned carbs

[greenman]

From my understanding, a simple feedback loop control could be built with a positional sensor on the damper stroke and a microcontroller and a valve to regulate the oil flow. Then you could have any charactoristics you would ever want. Once you have the physical stuff (valves and controller) then it is just a case of software.
You could have the crappyist valve in the world and the software would just drive it to control the damping. So long as it could open wide and fast enough not to get into a turbulent flow condition.