I binned. Lesson of the Day...

[Badjelly]

Before I start bagging the cop, what I don't understand is on what grounds was Bomma in anyway careless?

I mean ok, he had low sided around a corner involving himself and is that enough to justify a careless driving charge?

Huh? He had a crash involving only himself and a stationary obstacle on the road. How is that *not* careless?

[Jimmy B]

Huh? He had a crash involving only himself and a stationary obstacle on the road. How is that *not* careless?

Thats how the police see it as well. A good friend of one of my riding buddies wrote off his Busa and was pretty banged up. Spent about 6 months rehabilitating.

The police informed him that he would likely be charged with careless driving despite the fact that he had an impecable record and had put about 70,000Ks on the Busa without incident. The problem was compounded by the fact that he had no real recollection of the accident.

Anyway, very long story short they decided not to proceed after an investigation by KB's very own Blackbird who documented and proved reasonable care on the part of the rider who was undone by significant accumulation of loose gravel on the apex of that corner.

In this case the police were reasonable in their decision not to proceed with the prosecution, but it was touch and go for a while.

Upshot is if you bin then it is very possible to be charged. One more reason...

[Ragingrob]

Huh? He had a crash involving only himself and a stationary obstacle on the road. How is that *not* careless?

So if your tyre pops and you bail it's careless? Cause noone else was involved were they. So for all the people who off when it's wet just because they're learning etc or even the pros, they should get charged with careless driving right?

Yeah I don't think so.

[Jimmy B]

So if your tyre pops and you bail it's careless? Cause noone else was involved were they. So for all the people who off when it's wet just because they're learning etc or even the pros, they should get charged with careless driving right?

Yeah I don't think so.

If your tyre was bald then yes.

Possible dependant on the circumstances of the off.

Think again mate

[Badjelly]

So if your tyre pops and you bail it's careless?

That's not what happened here. You can't cope with every eventuality, but you should not drive in such a way what you are unable to avoid a stationary object on the road.

Oh, and I have fallen off motorcycles on a number of occasions, some entirely due to my carelessness, the others only partially.

And I didn't actually say he should be *charged* with careless driving, because if everyone who drove carelessly was charged, then the courts wouldn't have time for anything else. And, as you say, he didn't hurt anyone but himself.

But do I think, on the facts presented here, that Bomma was riding carelessly? Absolutely!

[Ragingrob]

I'm pretty sure if you bin going round a corner and the bike slips out due to a wet white line or anything then that can't be considering careless driving! In terms of the guy who wrote of his Busa... That gravel would've been pretty stationary and it can't have covered the entire corner...

[Ragingrob]

That's not what happened here. You can't cope with every eventuality, but you should not drive in such a way what you are unable to avoid a stationary object on the road.

Oh, and I have fallen off motorcycles on a number of occasions, some entirely due to my carelessness, the others only partially.

And I didn't actually say he should be *charged* with careless driving, because if everyone who drove carelessly was charged, then the courts wouldn't have time for anything else. And, as you say, he didn't hurt anyone but himself.

But do I think, on the facts presented here, that Bomma was riding carelessly? Absolutely!

Fair enough, even if it was just that split second choice though... If there's something on the road and you are already leaning decently then sometimes you would think it's safer to try handle the object than to lean more and push yourself with a high chance of low-siding? I don't think he was riding outside his limit which is careless, but I do think he must've been pretty close to it.

[Jimmy B]

I'm pretty sure if you bin going round a corner and the bike slips out due to a wet white line or anything then that can't be considering careless driving! In terms of the guy who wrote of his Busa... That gravel would've been pretty stationary and it can't have covered the entire corner...

If you hit a white line or other road marking and you bin then its just probably one of those things and no further action woould be taken. However, if there is a question mark over inappropriate speed or other negligent contributing factor then it is very likely that CD would be considered.

Not only the Busa mate, almost him as well.

It did and sprayed quite deep into the corner as well. Virtually invisible and the result of fairly average resealing some weeks prior to the accident. In fact still evident some months after as well. Speed or technique was not a factor here and once the police considered these aspects they chose not to lay charges. As I said it was touch and go for quite a while.

[Badjelly]

I'm pretty sure if you bin going round a corner and the bike slips out due to a wet white line or anything then that can't be considering careless driving! In terms of the guy who wrote of his Busa... That gravel would've been pretty stationary and it can't have covered the entire corner...

Hmm. There are always borderline cases. With gravel and wet white lines the problem is you often can't see them.

Let's consider a case I'm familiar with. A few decades ago I was riding my 250 through Epsom on Gillies Avenue, turned left onto a side street, travelling at a speed that was faster than usual but still well within the bounds of my bike, I thought. Next thing, with no warning that I noticed, skating on my bum. There was a thin line of petrol around the corner. Bloody emabarassing but no major damage. Was this entirely my fault? Obviously not. Should I have been charged with careless driving? Maybe, but what would it have achieved? Do I go slower through suburban corners these days? F**k yes!

[Ragingrob]

Hmm. There are always borderline cases. With gravel and wet white lines the problem is you often can't see them.

Let's consider a case I'm familiar with. A few decades ago I was riding my 250 through Epsom on Gillies Avenue, turned left onto a side street, travelling at a speed that was faster than usual but still well within the bounds of my bike, I thought. Next thing, with no warning that I noticed, skating on my bum. There was a thin line of petrol around the corner. Bloody emabarassing but no major damage. Was this entirely my fault? Obviously not. Should I have been charged with careless driving? Maybe, but what would it have achieved? Do I go slower through suburban corners these days? F**k yes!

Yeah there're things out there that "can" be prevented but when they're as unexpected and invisible as that then there's not much one can do which makes things tough! I wonder how far through the corner Bomma actually saw the rock though, depending on size and lighting it could've also been rather invisible until it was pretty much too late. I'm sure that if he'd seen it as soon as it was within site then he would've be able to avoid it.

My gf got dealt a careless driving warning just because some randoms rang up the cops and told them something she didn't even do... They didn't contact her for her story or anything, then sent away the letter of warning, honestly wtf haha apparently some cop did it who'd been on the beat for two weeks. No common sense.

[Badjelly]

Yeah there're things out there that "can" be prevented but when they're as unexpected and invisible as that then there's not much one can do which makes things tough!

Yes, but my point is that there is one thing you *can* do, which is ride slower. (How much slower is the interesting question.)

And learning to ride better may help too, but that's harder.

[Ragingrob]

It's a thin line between pushing yourself that tiny bit to improve and learn, and pushing yourself that tiny bit too far... A line that many many people cross and some are unfortunate to end up binning

[HungusMaximist]

At the end of the day, I don't actually think Bomma was riding carelessly, and even if he did, it was pretty much out of his control.

Yep, there were plenty of other tactics he could've used to get him outta that situation but I am no gonna going into that as it's already been said.

Of course, as motorcyclists we try our damm hardest to sense danger beforehand and try to avoid the situation all in all. But you know, like I said, this is life and we're humans after all not robots, shit happens and you can't expect every rider out there to do be careful in every single situation.

If it was a blatant careless riding then let it be. As far as I know (and the feeling in general) and from what I've heard from Jimmy B and Bad jelly, it looks like getting the careless driving charge slapped on you is as easy as 1, 2, 3.

I am not trying to argue who is right and who is wrong here but I want to understand is what validates as careless? Especially in Bomma case I don't think it's as easy as black and white. The impression I am getting is that the line that separates a rider from a careless driving charge and walking away is rather thin and is up to whatever the officer feels like doing.

Finally I''ll add that from the times that I've ridden with Bomma I regard him highly as a competent rider. This is also reflected in his good natured personality, he's not type of person going around looking for trouble.

[Jimmy B]

If it was a blatant careless riding then let it be. As far as I know (and the feeling in general) and from what I've heard from Jimmy B and Bad jelly, it looks like getting the careless driving charge slapped on you is as easy as 1, 2, 3.

I am not trying to argue who is right and who is wrong here but I want to understand is what validates as careless? .

From the youthlaw website:

"If you drive without reasonable consideration for other people or you fail to drive with the care and attention that a reasonable and sensible driver would exercise in the circumstance you will be driving carelessly. This may relate to excess speed, failing to make the proper signals and observe other road rules. It may also relate to not driving in a way that suits the driving conditions (e.g. weather, road surface, traffic flow, light conditions). Remember this now includes skateboarders, roller skaters and roller bladers".

[bomma]

man a lot of discussion here lol think i may have hit a nerve.......let me just first say that yes i should have been going slower, in retrospect that would have stopped me from binning.....but i still dont think i was going beyond my skill.....not trying to talk myself up but having put on more than 140000kms in the last 8 months (mostly open riding ks) im pretty well aware of how far my skill level stretches and a pretty good idea of how my bike handles.....not to say that i am all and know all but i have a pretty good idea......

im not the kind of guy who goes around every corner looking to get his knee down....if im not comfortable with something i dont try to silence the "be careful" voice and will take it easy.....in this instance i saw the rock very late, having seen macstar go through the corner i spared no thought to think that we would be taking different lines and assumed that there were no potential hazards in the line I would be taking and thus took the corner faster than i would if there was nobody in front of me.....

and the mistakes that followed from there have been identified in the first post......i can bitch and moan all i want about how the rock shouldn't have been there or how you guys have it wrong and blah blah blah but i wont.....yes a lot of what you guys are saying is right....slower = safer, riding carelessly = maybe depending on interpretation......but at the end of the day mistakes is how you learn.....ie, you have a close call and you learn or in this case i binned but i learnt......to me thats more important to take away from this bin than going over all the things that i may have done wrong or all the things that went wrong......like my boss used to say "Cudda, wudda, shudda.....but didnt"

just my two cents

oh and yea i reckon that cops a right wanker......having been notified of an accident the cop came flying up 6kms outta whitianga, away from his box of donuts, to come and see how much shit he could book me for.....this is not something id expect from a considerate human being let alone a fucking cop......probably got let off coz its too early in the month to be worrying about quotas.....