Question for JD Racing and Robert T

[Robert Taylor]

Good input mate, The point I was leading to here was as you have put it as well as JD Reference to his racer rider

Differnt courses for different horses.

JD reference, showed that his race riders set up needs to be ridden fast and hard to work and feel at it's best safest settings ( as well as uping the concentration level of the rider)

Where as a slower rider, on the road or the race track, needs a different setting so the bike still feels nice and safe!

So yea, you can go out and spend $2000+ on really good trick front end parts, but I honestly believe, the average road rider does not need this set up at all! Having said that, if you have the cash to spare, and love to know and grow in the motorcycle game, spend away, you will not regret it!

As far as rear shocks go, Penske or Ohlin"s, I have ridden and raced on both! Standard as they come from the factory, they are both bloody great quality!

And exactly why Crown Kiwi Technical has mid price and lower price options and a whole database of settings.

[Robert Taylor]

Good input mate, The point I was leading to here was as you have put it as well as JD Reference to his racer rider

Differnt courses for different horses.

JD reference, showed that his race riders set up needs to be ridden fast and hard to work and feel at it's best safest settings ( as well as uping the concentration level of the rider)

Where as a slower rider, on the road or the race track, needs a different setting so the bike still feels nice and safe!

So yea, you can go out and spend $2000+ on really good trick front end parts, but I honestly believe, the average road rider does not need this set up at all! Having said that, if you have the cash to spare, and love to know and grow in the motorcycle game, spend away, you will not regret it!

As far as rear shocks go, Penske or Ohlin"s, I have ridden and raced on both! Standard as they come from the factory, they are both bloody great quality!

Actually everyone that has used our mid price ''rekits'' has been happy and if on the race track they have lapped faster. If they have gone the whole hog with our ''twin tube pressure balanced shocks'' and FGK cartridge kits they have lapped faster again.

Once we are established in our new premises we will be actively rekitting many standard shocks and Rekitting front forks, so if people are price conscious and want very good value for money this will be a very worthwhile option. ( Well below the price of a mid range shock ). As we have a database and lots of setting experience with Ohlins we know what we need to mimic as close as possible. This is where the suspension dyno has been and will continue to be invaluable.
Test riders we have had over the years have also been very valuable and currently I would have to rate feedback from Andrew Stroud and Damien Cudlin very highly. With Tony Rees being the only exception none of the riders I have worked with are trained in pulling shocks apart and reassembling, and therefore not so conversant with valving techniques to get the overall feel desired. Having myself ridden motorcycles since 1973 I have a very reasonable perception of what damping and ride height control should work like. Thats an average road riders perception ( most of us )

[Pussy]

I'll be VERY interested to see how the Racetech shock revalves go, and how the fork internals go with the doctor's personalised setting up.
Will all the stuff on Racetech's site be available here?

[JD Racing]

The proof though has been in the pudding and if it is milliseconds ( which I have always thought ) then that is enough. All of the other factors you mention are a relative constant, but if you have a shock that is more reactive more quickly then it makes sense. If you do better work at the very start of stroke there is then less effort required to control movement later on. ( I know that sounds simple ) Heck, you and I have played around with settings that mess with hysterisis ( delay or otherwise in damping buildup ) and noticed a difference. So minimising the delay is a good thing.

Yes indeed they are dump valves and although some people maligned the Ohlins one I have found the response range to be quite reasonable, and it is a ''slope adjuster''

I didnt say I hate that shock, just the ill informed and frankly incorrect hype that is going on about no revalving required. My own dyno graphs concur that it is a mid speed adjuster that gives a second knee that does nothing to the slope angle, it just parrallells it. Personally, I think it is more ideal to alter the slope angle, especially for bumpy tracks and my own experience working with both systems confirms that.

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.

[Shaun]

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.

I can only imagine that the 15mm sag, is Top out Versus static sag? NOT RIDER 1G? Rather a large number there do you not think?

And if it is, would the shock not still have quick reaction time, due to the fact that it is sitting in the working range of the shaft now?

Surely, the only lag time for quick action with this set up, would be after getting on and off the brakes, and extending the shock to full top out? Untill it settles back down again, to the rider sag weight set up range?

[cowpoos]

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.

static or rider?? and was the for road? track?

[Shaun]

static or rider?? and was the for road? track?

Was my question back not enough for you mate, or are you just another reader, who only reads what they want to, and not the whole thread

[Robert Taylor]

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.

Please avail some more detail...............note that when setting up we are more preoccupied with the Rider 1g setting and will test different rate springs around that. You know how that set-up mentality works................

[Robert Taylor]

I can only imagine that the 15mm sag, is Top out Versus static sag? NOT RIDER 1G? Rather a large number there do you not think?

And if it is, would the shock not still have quick reaction time, due to the fact that it is sitting in the working range of the shaft now?

Surely, the only lag time for quick action with this set up, would be after getting on and off the brakes, and extending the shock to full top out? Untill it settles back down again, to the rider sag weight set up range?

Exactly Shaun and I fail to see what JD is getting at until he embellishes his comment with more detail.

Such a number for static ( bike only ) would be huge but ''set up'' numbers are interesting and used too much as a bible by many. A rider can have numbers that appear plain nuts but if they work for him and hes doing the lap times then all well and good.
As an aside in the case of a 125 road race bike the sag reading in the rear has to a degree be more subservient to setting the correct fairing attitude into the airstream to minimise drag. This can all get quite interesting.

[Shaun P]

Heres my experience of how suspension developed for me last year starting race at the Vic series on stock suspension which performed adequately on the road. I first approached RT and Kerry about my rear tyre shredding itself after a track/race session, and tried to sort out the comp dampening but shock was limited as pace was increased also it was not easily adjustable for ride height or adviseable to change the spring rate as the shock would overheat rapidly The only answer was to change the shock to get the adjustability/damping that was needed - so a TTX36 was fitted with some already tested valving. The ride height and clickers needed some adjustment to get the desired feel/handling and tyre wear characteristics.
That was all good but now the front end was feeling unresponsive and unpredictable, adjustments were made to try and improve the rebound but really was only a temporary 'fix'. Next the Ohlins 25mm cartridges went in with a standard rate spring and spacer to replace the stock progressive wound one. That made a huge difference to the front end but changes were still needed to the spring rate and oil level height and front end ride height..

By the time I had this fairly well sorted it was the past the end of the Vic Series but my point being you really need to start with a good baseline setting and components for your application and make changes as they are needed to correct a handling deficiency /tyre wear problem, not just put in all the high spec components because thats what the racers have.

Hope this is in context for this thread

[Shaun]

Heres my experience of how suspension developed for me last year starting race at the Vic series on stock suspension which performed adequately on the road. I first approached RT and Kerry about my rear tyre shredding itself after a track/race session, and tried to sort out the comp dampening but shock was limited as pace was increased also it was not easily adjustable for ride height or adviseable to change the spring rate as the shock would overheat rapidly The only answer was to change the shock to get the adjustability/damping that was needed - so a TTX36 was fitted with some already tested valving. The ride height and clickers needed some adjustment to get the desired feel/handling and tyre wear characteristics.
That was all good but now the front end was feeling unresponsive and unpredictable, adjustments were made to try and improve the rebound but really was only a temporary 'fix'. Next the Ohlins 25mm cartridges went in with a standard rate spring and spacer to replace the stock progressive wound one. That made a huge difference to the front end but changes were still needed to the spring rate and oil level height and front end ride height..

By the time I had this fairly well sorted it was the past the end of the Vic Series but my point being you really need to start with a good baseline setting and components for your application and make changes as they are needed to correct a handling deficiency /tyre wear problem, not just put in all the high spec components because thats what the racers have.

Hope this is in context for this thread

Sure is man, and after all that trick gear you had put in the bike, WHO WAS IT THAT FIXED THE FRONT END HANDLING FOR YOU AS A RIDER?

And how much difference did it create for you as a rider after that?

And how much did it cost you?

I like a good laugh

[Shaun P]

Sure is man, and after all that trick gear you had put in the bike, WHO WAS IT THAT FIXED THE FRONT END HANDLING FOR YOU AS A RIDER?

And how much difference did it create for you as a rider after that?

And how much did it cost you?

I like a good laugh

Yep what happened was the front forks were bottoming and an increase in oil level height didnt solve it so a 9.5 rate spring was fitted in place of a 9.0 so it slowed the turn in, thats where you came in at the track with advice to drop the front forks thru 3mm which was bang on for turn in. (cheers )I later raised the rear shock height a bit more as well to hold line a bit better on exit.

It really is an ongoing progression and you can get quicker and need more adjustments, thats where the knowledge of suspension setup is crucial, you really need to work through the settings to see what they do and so you can give good feedback. Next season when I set up a bike for racing it will have good undercarriage from the start and will definitely work with a suspension tech for a practice day at a track to dial in a good trackside base line setting.

The suspension components cost me alot actually, but your right the adjustments cost nothing and its the knowledge of setup and what you do with them that counts.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep what happened was the front forks were bottoming and an increase in oil level height didnt solve it so a 9.5 rate spring was fitted in place of a 9.0 so it slowed the turn in, thats where you came in at the track with advice to drop the front forks thru 3mm which was bang on for turn in. (cheers )I later raised the rear shock height a bit more as well to hold line a bit better on exit.

It really is an ongoing progression and you can get quicker and need more adjustments, thats where the knowledge of suspension setup is crucial, you really need to work through the settings to see what they do and so you can give good feedback. Next season when I set up a bike for racing it will have good undercarriage from the start and will definitely work with a suspension tech for a practice day at a track to dial in a good trackside base line setting.

The suspension components cost me alot actually, but your right the adjustments cost nothing and its the knowledge of setup and what you do with them that counts.

In the States ( for example ) trackside backup with Ohlins and a number of other products is generally poor. Here in NZ we offer backup that is light years ahead and I think a lot of people dont realise that it is very much not the norm around the world, and that in other countries you pay and keep paying for every little bit of trackside assistance. But the point is, irrespective of what top line components you have you will not get the optimum performance unless knowledgable backup exists and not only trackside. Is it a product that the onseller specialises in or does it come out of a warehouse as just one of many commodities with limited or no backup? Etc etc
With any shock irrespective of external adjustments the window of setting for optimum performance is in fact very fine. A setting that you have ended up with on a certain track is not guaranteed to work just as well at another. If the external setting runs out of range ( and they do with any shock ) is there a qualified and experienced tech on hand to revalve it if neccessary ?( the shock that doesnt need revalving is a myth )
Also what works well in the middle of a cold winter series is going to be a wobbly jelly on a hot day in the middle of the summer nats.
The bigger the engine and the more sensitive its chassis the more critical set up becomes. Also what works for one rider doesnt work for another.
What we do here is a relative walk in the park. In January I was contracted to Ohlins for 4 days to assist with Phillip Island pre season Superbike tests. Four full on 15 hour days. The 2 bike Supersport 600 team I was responsible for had 6 spare shocks and 6 spare fork sets, fitted with gas charged cartridges. Boxes and boxes of spare fork and shock springs. These I had apart relentlessly over the 4 days so alternative and sometimes very incremental settings could be tested. This was specific to Phillip Island, the settings would be different at the next track and so on.
Here in NZ its very often a case of ''if I have to buy one spare spring its like having my throat cut'' I know that sounds cynical but its all about having the tools to do the job and learning by it all the time.

[FROSTY:Me]

I just watched "Top Gear" on TV I know its a car program but the point is relevant here I think.
A Quality sports car was set up suspension wise to suit the TRACK driving style of a RACE driver.Stiff and bordering on twitchy on the track.
A normal road driver took it on the road for a drive and it was scarey to drive.
It was set up for road driving and was too soft for the track

[Robert Taylor]

I just watched "Top Gear" on TV I know its a car program but the point is relevant here I think.
A Quality sports car was set up suspension wise to suit the TRACK driving style of a RACE driver.Stiff and bordering on twitchy on the track.
A normal road driver took it on the road for a drive and it was scarey to drive.
It was set up for road driving and was too soft for the track

Also, as a novice racer gets progressively faster they require firmer and firmer settings, this is a classic scenario.