650 pro twins...

[Robert Taylor]

I wanna race a superbike, but it's too expensive so I want the rules changed to make it cheap enough for me. Only trouble is if they managed to make a set of rules that restricted the cost enough to make it affordable for me it wouldn't be superbike any more. No matter what you do with the rules not everybody is going to be able to afford to go racing and it isn't anybody's job to make affordable for everybody. Some people will never be able to afford a race bike. That's just how it is - life sucks. As for some people spending more than others, good on them for being keen enough and also for having the cash to do it. There will always be sometimes vastly different sums spent even within the same class.

Well said, it should remain as a class where the technology is not victimised.

[FROSTY:Me]

It is importnat that rules are made by people who actually know the technical ins and outs.

Yep I agree. (gosh Robert don't tell anyone)

[Robert Taylor]

Cant seem to get into the MNZ website to reread Paul Stewarts original letter RE the introduction of the Pro twins class,But from memory his thinking was to introduce the class this year and then over a period of time(not specified) it would replace F3.As far as a low level feeder class is concerned things got out of hand with the introduction of suspension mods,Power commanders,Full exhaust systems,Full bodykits and so on.As a feeder class it should be,Standard roadbike with replica fibreglass if required,Sticky tyres and a slip on muffler only.Everything else bar fork oil and gearing should have been left standard.I know theres gonna be people out there who disagree citing safety etc.But if everybody is in the same boat then costs are reduced dramatically and its down to the rider to win the races not somebodys cheque book.As far as safety is concerned,A motorcycle is only as dangerous as you make it and it would be a brave person who said nobody ever crashes while using Ohlins/Whitepower/Penske etc.A lot of people I spoke to were keen to enter the Pro twins class until the the final rules were released and they saw how expensive it was gonna be.Sam Love spent in excess of $20,000.00 buiding a bike that could have been built for less than $10,000.00 under the above rules and $10,000.00 buys a shitload of tyres/travel/accomodation etc.I wonder how many would have been on the grid at Ruapuna under the above format.Food for thought

Of course people crash with top level suspension kit fitted, usually at higher speeds. But the abysmal hydraulic control with especially oem damper rod forks mean that such bikes are easier to crash.

I dont hear Sam Love complaining and to say you can build a pro twins bike for under 10k assumes that there is a plentiful supply of second hand units. Excepting grey imports that mentality assumes that there are plenty of people buying these units new and that they are taking the hit on depreciation to feed racers habits. There is no free lunch for everybody.

If you want cheap then buckets beckon or maybe something like racing those ridiculous mopeds in Malaysia and Thailand.

The costs are a given, maybe we should all be looking at the root causes of why our standard of living and the very cost of living has worsened dramatically over the last decade or more.

And as I said before if we start thinking in 3rd world terms that is exactly what we will become. Aspiring to do things well is a whole lot better than mediocrity.

[Billy]

Of course people crash with top level suspension kit fitted, usually at higher speeds. But the abysmal hydraulic control with especially oem damper rod forks mean that such bikes are easier to crash.

I dont hear Sam Love complaining and to say you can build a pro twins bike for under 10k assumes that there is a plentiful supply of second hand units. Excepting grey imports that mentality assumes that there are plenty of people buying these units new and that they are taking the hit on depreciation to feed racers habits. There is no free lunch for everybody.

If you want cheap then buckets beckon or maybe something like racing those ridiculous mopeds in Malaysia and Thailand.

The costs are a given, maybe we should all be looking at the root causes of why our standard of living and the very cost of living has worsened dramatically over the last decade or more.

And as I said before if we start thinking in 3rd world terms that is exactly what we will become. Aspiring to do things well is a whole lot better than mediocrity.

Would be really helpful Robert if you could read the whole post and not just the bits that affect your business.IF you had you would have noticed firstly that nobody was suggesting you could build a Pro twins bike for under 10k under the current format,Rather under a revised format,Secondly,Re Sam Loves bike.The point was not whether He was happy with the package,Rather whether he should have needed to spend so much.After all you need to know the basics before moving on to the technical side and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.I would suggest you go back and reread the post so you understand it completely before commenting.Have a nice day

[k14]

and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.

If pro twins and streetstock are the only classes to "learn" then what is 125 for?

[johnsv650]

how much better are the ttx shocks over the 3 or 4 year old shocks, glenw and terrys over teh rest of the f3 feild and how much better are the forks you worked on in aussy over the current ones......
john

[Shaun]

Around 2k for front and rear inclusive assuming no dutch auctions. As I have stated before the learning of suspension set up skills is important for when you move on to more elite classes. Btw, WP was another option

Sounds about write Rob RE costs of the equipment- I do fully agree with you on the learning curve involved in setting up suspension, BUT, ( Hope Some one else you know is not reading this) The whole idea ( Or so I believed) when the Pro Twins class idea came up, was as an introductory class for young riders

Yes, the standard sus on these bikes is not any thing to write home about, but the wheels do keep turning, if you do not crash them. AND WE ALL DRIVE IN THE RAIN ON OUR STANDARD CAR TYRES AND BIKE TYRES AND GET BY. Maybe, we can actually learn more?

SO, it is possible for the young riders (ie, as I thought, THE INTRODUCTORY CLASS) to actually get out there racing modern 4 Stroke bikes, and cutting there teeth for the move up to the 600 class, where the full Suspension options are available.

2K suspension
750 FAIRINGS
300 FAIRING BRACKETS
1000+ FULL RACE PIPE
350 MIN AFT MK FOOT PEGS


And I,ve just built a cheap one, based on todays rules?

[Shaun]

You're funny! - My bike was the oldest shittiest most `standard' fuggin road bike out there! I'd gladly swap for a new SV with racing subframes light bodywork braided lines no lights new pirellis changed by Dad before the first race that I hadnt done a race meeting on + ridden 300kays to the track + practised/qualified on etc, etc.
Nearly as funny as Bos's dad calling me a `cheat' for having black backgrounds on my number plates (/saddlebag scuff protectors).
(nb/ We should put them all on a dyno like production racing everywhere else in the world - my bike makes 70hp exactly)

Aaaaaaaha, so you were the prat on that piece of shite looking thing

[slowpoke]

Would be really helpful Robert if you could read the whole post and not just the bits that affect your business.IF you had you would have noticed firstly that nobody was suggesting you could build a Pro twins bike for under 10k under the current format,Rather under a revised format,Secondly,Re Sam Loves bike.The point was not whether He was happy with the package,Rather whether he should have needed to spend so much.After all you need to know the basics before moving on to the technical side and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.I would suggest you go back and reread the post so you understand it completely before commenting.Have a nice day

Ease up big fullah....eeeeeeaaaasse uuuuppp. Robert is just participating in the discussion, and from a quite unique perspective, so berating him is not really fostering the exchange of ideas. "Write in anger, but save in draft" when you get wound up has been a helpful bit of advice I once received.

As for there being no other class outside of streetstock to learn your craft, I disagree. An old F3 bike is as cheap as chips, as is a not quite up to the minute 600 which you could race in Clubman's, 600's and/or Superbikes. GP125's are also very cheap to pick up, which if you are the right body shape is surely the ultimate skills academy.

A three or four year old R6 or the like isn't going to be at the extreme pointy end but if it's well ridden and well set up will still show the way to a lesser rider on a later machine. Not to mention at club rounds you'll be able to cross enter into the Superbike field and score double the races in a weekend.

So what is our ultimate goal here? I mean we need to know where we are going, what we are trying to acheive, before we set a course to get there. If it's just a cheap form of bike racing, bums on seats, then Pro Twins is probably a good way to go. But if we are trying to create riders in our own backyard capable of challenging Stroud, Shirriffs, Clee, Rees etc then I don't think we are on the right track. Instead riders will still face the prospect of having to go overseas like Dennis Charlett, Sam Smith, Dom Jones etc to learn the requisite skills.

I look at guys like Josh Brookes in Oz who won the 2001 Oz Supersport championship as a privateer teenager, and went on to win a round of the WSS and be only the second guy ever to win the Oz Supersport/Superbike double and I don't see a Pro Twin type ride helping him in anyway whatsoever. Josh Waters is well on the same path and they just seem to keep churning out international standard riders, without a Pro Twin type bike in sight. The same goes for the States where young Ben Spies has broken Mat Mladin's stranglehold in the AMA Superbikes, although the money is too good for the best Americans to leave for the world stage. Same in Britain where the R6 Cup is a proving ground for the up and comers, not to mention the Spainish assembly line of hardcore GP racing.

I maintain that if we ever hope to see a home grown Kiwi do well on the world stage again then we need to get youngsters onto proper fully adjustable race bikes with a reasonable power to weight ratio as soon as possible.

[GSVR]

I maintain that if we ever hope to see a home grown Kiwi do well on the world stage again then we need to get youngsters onto proper fully adjustable race bikes with a reasonable power to weight ratio as soon as possible.

Get the youngsters onto dirt bikes. People that did alot of dirtbike riding when they where young all seem to have an edge over ones that didn't.

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?

Like I eluded to in my previous posts we dont need to keep fostering a third world mentality. If we keep thinking like that...well that is exactly like what we will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without even the most basic mods damper rods ( as fitted oem to SV and ER etc ) are in fact potentially dangerous because they afford only very poor pitch control under braking. And an older model SV shock may have worked okay for your own ''unchallenging'' weight. That is your choice, but people who want something better ( within reason ) and are determined to do so should not be penalised or indeed victimised by the kiwi tall poppy syndrome..

If I was to fit a 190 section Superbike tyre to my 4 1/5 inch SV rim which according to some tyre manufacturers is too narrow for a 160 section should I be allowed to race as this and potentually put other racers at risk with this unrecommended combination?.

Plenty of standard unmodified SVs do trackdays and surprisingly they crash or run off the track alot less than learners on bigger bikes.

I'm not trying to adopt a third world mentality. If the ProTwin class cost 1/2 what it does today to compete in it would become viable for alot more younger people who may otherwise go no further than Streetstock.

I really don't see it as a class for X New Zealand champions but a great class for riders without rich daddys or plenty of dispossable income to have a fair crack at racing and being competitive.

If anyone considers the class to budget they can always get a Supersport bike like others have done but most of them don't last long as theres too many expense crash repair bills.

Young guy starting out has a huge amount of expenses. Keep Protwin as cheap as possible and if someone wants to spend megabucks they can race in F3 or Supersport if they think they can meet the standard and not take out other riders.

If a rider makes a modest outlay to get an SV on the track and decides racing isn't for them then a complete ready to race package becomes available for someone else.

If there is a safety issue with SVs without emulators and aftermarket shocks is it not irresponsable for MNZ to allow these bikes on the track if they haven't been made potentually safe?

[johnsv650]

a 190 tyre on a 4.5 rim ........lol

[johnsv650]

the pro twin clas is infact two classes, the 20 and under and the 20 and over, i think mnz have even overlooked this.......

[Clivoris]

a 190 tyre on a 4.5 rim ........lol

There has been talk around the pits recently that this might be the latest performance tip for the SV. I wouldn't have a clue, but it will be interesting to see how many people actually try this.

[GSVR]

There has been talk around the pits recently that this might be the latest performance tip for the SV. I wouldn't have a clue, but it will be interesting to see how many people actually try this.

I reacon post it in the "Wheel tyres and brakes" section and see what response the experts on here give!

[Clivoris]

I reacon post it in the "Wheel tyres and brakes" section and see what response the experts on here give!

Life's too short mate.