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  1. #931
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    Graphs attached. As Grumph suggested, the boost rises pretty quick at the end. There is all sorts of interesting stuff to be gleaned just from this one run. Most concerning is the injector limitations. A rising rate fuel pressure regulator might be an option, especially if it can be used to reduce fuel pressure off-boost. That might introduce issues with atomization though.
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  2. #932
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    Graphs attached. As Grumph suggested, the boost rises pretty quick at the end. There is all sorts of interesting stuff to be gleaned just from this one run. Most concerning is the injector limitations. A rising rate fuel pressure regulator might be an option, especially if it can be used to reduce fuel pressure off-boost. That might introduce issues with atomization though.
    http://turbochargerspecs.blogspot.co...rim-80-hp.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #933
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    13th June 2010 - 17:47
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    Without looking at what Husa has posted, I'm sure the fuel pressure thing is solvable. I wouldn't worry too much about poor atomisation at low revs - a carb after all, works well at small depressions. Squirting it in at even a low pressure should work better.

    The boost coming in well up the range is also amenable to fixing. I seem to remember way back in the thread, your exhaust collector/manifold is tapered ?
    A smaller volume, parallel wall, higher velocity collector might give results over a wider range. It's a question of tailoring everything to the turbo you've got.

    I must get back onto mine.....Wallace was out here the other weekend and wanted to hear it running. So do I.

  4. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    Looking over the log file there is a real limit with the current injectors. I have less than the recommended minimum injector pulsewidth at 3000rpm and it is a bit rich. At 15,000rpm+ and with boost, the ECU is trying for 10.18ms pulsewidth but there is only 7.5ms(@16,000rpm) available time for a complete cycle.
    Time to look at staged injection.

    I am totally impressed, you were the first person in Buckets to make 30 rwhp with a two stroke then the first to do it again with a four stroke......

  5. #935
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    So, definitely the plan is to relocate the turbo to directly in front of the engine with the shortest possible headers to the turbo. Compressor output around side of engine where turbo currently is, through a single throttle body, to plenum, and into intakes where injectors will be. Plenty of custom bits to make so it's a slightly longer term plan.

    On the more immediate plan is a rising rate regulator which is already fitted. I've also cracked open the throttle just a little using the throttle stop and recalibrated the TPS. Cracking the throttle open is to make it a little easier to start and also raise the idle. Both benefited from a little throttle. I haven't fired it up again yet. I've also ordered a wastegate boost pressure variable bleed bypass. I made one ages ago which worked great on a Nissan Gazelle but I gave it to the guy who owned the car. For $30 it wasn't worth making another one. It goes between the manifold and the wastegate bellows to delay opening the wastegate. Hopefully the increased fuel pressure on boost will ease the fuelling problems. Of course it means another session on the dyno or maybe on the rolling road to start with. The rolling road is great for getting things right at a more or less constant rpm and load.

    So much to do, and the new scooter bits are on the way. Watercooled this time so need pump, radiator, fan, fan controller, and heaps of fabrication. One big headache trying to fit everything in.

    Still interested in a CBR, or similar, throttle body for the turbo if anyone has one they are willing to part with. I haven't looked closely at one yet so wouldn't mind the opportunity to do that as well.

  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    So, definitely the plan is to relocate the turbo to directly in front of the engine with the shortest possible headers to the turbo. Compressor output around side of engine where turbo currently is, through a single throttle body, to plenum, and into intakes where injectors will be. Plenty of custom bits to make so it's a slightly longer term plan.

    On the more immediate plan is a rising rate regulator which is already fitted. I've also cracked open the throttle just a little using the throttle stop and recalibrated the TPS. Cracking the throttle open is to make it a little easier to start and also raise the idle. Both benefited from a little throttle. I haven't fired it up again yet. I've also ordered a wastegate boost pressure variable bleed bypass. I made one ages ago which worked great on a Nissan Gazelle but I gave it to the guy who owned the car. For $30 it wasn't worth making another one. It goes between the manifold and the wastegate bellows to delay opening the wastegate. Hopefully the increased fuel pressure on boost will ease the fuelling problems. Of course it means another session on the dyno or maybe on the rolling road to start with. The rolling road is great for getting things right at a more or less constant rpm and load.

    So much to do, and the new scooter bits are on the way. Watercooled this time so need pump, radiator, fan, fan controller, and heaps of fabrication. One big headache trying to fit everything in.

    Still interested in a CBR, or similar, throttle body for the turbo if anyone has one they are willing to part with. I haven't looked closely at one yet so wouldn't mind the opportunity to do that as well.
    so its just to stop gate creep from when it opens lightly early
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  7. #937
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    Creep is still a problem but it starts at a higher boost level. Ideally I'd like to go with electronic boost control then there would be no creep with the advantage that it could spool up quicker.

  8. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    Creep is still a problem but it starts at a higher boost level. Ideally I'd like to go with electronic boost control then there would be no creep with the advantage that it could spool up quicker.
    i remember on thre 3 and six cylinders one cylinder generally blew direct into the turbo.
    I are wondering if you fed one straight and one curved arround and joinned in a collector if the second one being twice as long might even out the pulses a bit.
    it wouldhave the lowest posible volume as well.
    i thought just a solenoid and a simple yes no gate circuit with a variable bleed to control and a pressure sensor or just a pressure switch and a trim pot.

    hardly any photos of a twin turbo 4 cylinder set up
    I have a f1 turbo era da book her i wonder what the hart and the honda v6 set up was like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #939
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    This motor has odd firing intervals as the pistons are one up one down, or a 180degree crank. There is no way there is ever going to be even pulses. The intervals are 0-180-540/0-180-540 etc.

    When I had the big bike boost turned up to 19psi it would spool up to about 10-12psi real quick. Much quicker than when the boost was set to 12psi. At 19psi it would also wheelie in any gear at anything over about 6000rpm with 15:33 gearing, about 120mph in top.

    With the bypass bleed you can increase the volume of the vacuum/boost lines with a little canister and it then takes a short time to build pressure to where the wastegate opens. This gives it a nice little momentary overboost and also helps it spool up as the wastegate is left completely closed for that little bit longer.

  10. #940
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    Is there any way you can retime the engine to fire more regularly with custom cams opening all the valves as inlets, then perhaps a side port arrangement in the cylinder? Then you could run 180, 180, 180 etc.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  11. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    This motor has odd firing intervals as the pistons are one up one down, or a 180degree crank. There is no way there is ever going to be even pulses. The intervals are 0-180-540/0-180-540 etc.

    .
    if pipe A has an exhaust gas speed of 100m/M and is 5cm long
    and pipe B has an exhaust gas speed of 100m/s and is 10cm long

    are the 180 degree exhaust firing pulses going to arrive at exactly 180 degree apart at the turbo?
    when one of them has to travel twice as far?
    I wouldn't think so. While they will always start 180 apart, yes but will they finish at 1800 degrees apart.

    from memory when i looked at them there was a way to use a CBR250 engine to make a 360 crank small twin.
    as the cam drive was between 1 and 2. leaving a 360 crank in the middle. and the space to make it work.
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    one of the big 4 250 fours, had a slightly shorter stroke (kawa i think) 2mm?
    but from memory one of the 250 webs has a built in Primary?
    as your 125cc engine still needs the stroke reigned in as well. which will give you of course 1/5 less exhaust gas to spool up the turbo. than what you have at present.
    On on the fours i think had a slightly smaller boret than the FZR or there was a honda laydown that had a slightly smaller bore with dished pistons.
    What was your plan? spray and weld or new billet crank?
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  12. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Is there any way you can retime the engine to fire more regularly with custom cams opening all the valves as inlets, then perhaps a side port arrangement in the cylinder? Then you could run 180, 180, 180 etc.
    I see where you are going with that. Possibly making it a diesel as well while I'm at it? Sultzer would be proud.

  13. #943
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    With very short equal length primaries direct to the turbo the pulses will arrive 180 apart, and then nothing for a while. The thing is that there is a very limited amount of energy in the exhaust of a small twin. Looking at it now the best option is probably to get the greatest amount of that energy into the turbo and never mind the niceties. You only have to look at the average car turbo manifold to see that it probably doesn't matter.

  14. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    With very short equal length primaries direct to the turbo the pulses will arrive 180 apart, and then nothing for a while. The thing is that there is a very limited amount of energy in the exhaust of a small twin. Looking at it now the best option is probably to get the greatest amount of that energy into the turbo and never mind the niceties. You only have to look at the average car turbo manifold to see that it probably doesn't matter.
    Which is a log manifold
    like a early Charade or GTR had.
    As you say they paid no heed the equal length.
    But they always aimed one port direct at the turbo right down to one valve port in a skylne 24v or 12v charade
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    i cant find a racing skyline one but they looked like this anyway

    this is what i suggesting at the start of the page.
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    but as Greg said about 40 pages ago it shouldn't be as big an big issue with the 180 twin compared to the 120 triple as the ex valves wont be open on two cylinders at the same time.
    which might be why they sometimes split the feed into the turbo into two parts.
    But by by offseting it to one side as in the rough pic you will cut down the plumbing on the boost side also, if you go around the side.
    but if you are going to intercooling it, will you will be going over the Top?

    thi is what i found to be one of the most efficient ans shortest designs
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    More Davenport than Ohakea
    but less bulk in the wrong places. Even if air to air is likely better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  15. #945
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    Back on the dyno today after fitting the rising rate fuel pressure regulator and the boost controller. Initial results were encouraging although as it was going overly rich early as boost rose, a lot of the low down power was lost. Hard on the boost it leapt up the revs. Only the ECU rev limiter and boost limit stopped it running away. Had lots of red flashing on the screen a couple of times.
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