Affordable four-stroke single GP bikes?

[avgas]

There is still a 125GP class because it's always been there

Um cant use that excuse anymore as that was why there was a 500 class.
The reason why the 250's and 125's still exist is because there is a sales market still there. 125's are all the likes that china/malaysia etc can have - so seeing a 125 race rep bike there like have a 888 SP in NZ.
Same with the 250 class where having a 'Prilla, RS Honda or RGV is the ultimate learners bikes.
If you look at Japan/China/Malaysia....anywhere but here.... they also have the 400, 450, 750, big scooter (400+), 125 motard, mini thumper (350-500) classes as they sell so much in that area that it deserves its own classes.
You have to realise that in NZ we are rather sheltered. We try and jam all the racers into F2/F3.....

[Ivan]

Um cant use that excuse anymore as that was why there was a 500 class.
The reason why the 250's and 125's still exist is because there is a sales market still there. 125's are all the likes that china/malaysia etc can have - so seeing a 125 race rep bike there like have a 888 SP in NZ.
Same with the 250 class where having a 'Prilla, RS Honda or RGV is the ultimate learners bikes.
If you look at Japan/China/Malaysia....anywhere but here.... they also have the 400, 450, 750, big scooter (400+), 125 motard, mini thumper (350-500) classes as they sell so much in that area that it deserves its own classes.
You have to realise that in NZ we are rather sheltered. We try and jam all the racers into F2/F3.....

Mate the Honda RS125 and 250 are no road bike.

They are purpose built GP bikes the chassis Geometry etc is diseigned for high speed cornering there is no power whatsover until high in the revs and 500ks is a new piston You cant even compare one of these to a RGV 250 or Aprilla RS125 road they are NOTHING in comparision

[idleidolidyll]

there are some bloody excellent 4 stroke single race bikes available already and you shouldn't need to modify them to kick arse.................except that Motorcycling NZ has lost the plot and banned them through the back door because a bunch of whiny soft koks can't beat them on their boring over priced old 4 cylinder hacks.

Yamahas MT03 for example is perfect for me. I have several fused vertebrae and I can't lean onto clip on bars any longerr to race sport bikes. The MT03 and KTM Duke etc would make great race bikes in the single 4 stroke section of F3 but MNZ has effectively banned these bikes by introducing a 900mm handlebar height limitation so that 10-20 year old japanese 4 cylinder time bombs with $10-15,000 motors can continue winning.
Something like a vee twin sit up bike would also be great, a 600 or 750 Ducati Multistrada would suit me fine..........but the stupid MNZ rules forbid them because the bars are too high. The KTM Duke has just 140mm of suspension travel so it's definitely a road bike and not a trail bike. Yet it is effectively banned from racing because of whiny cry babies. The Multistrada is also a road bike and nothing else but it is banned by whiners with the same small minded rules.

The 'Formula' classes in NZ are a bloody joke. The original idea of these classes was to have a wide range of different types of bikes racing against each other.

The production classes were where the sponsors got their rocks off with limited numbers of manufacturers able to win races (read 3 or 4 jappa manufacturers, several who are major sponsors and who are frequently sucked up to).

Hey MNZ, I don't really like jappas, have you forgotten why BEARs started and why it nearly wiped jappa racing off the map for a number of years?

If you're gonna write these stupid laws, why don't you just specify brand names and be fucking done with it?

You might notice I'm pissed. Yes, I was thinking of making a return to racing after a decade away. Cruising through the regulations over the last week though, I see petty mindedness still prevails and sucking up to the sponsors rules the roost.

Where is my racing class if not a formula race where the VERY IDEA is to mix it up a lot????

[CHOPPA]

there are some bloody excellent 4 stroke single race bikes available already and you shouldn't need to modify them to kick arse.................except that Motorcycling NZ has lost the plot and banned them through the back door because a bunch of whiny soft koks can't beat them on their boring over priced old 4 cylinder hacks.

Yamahas MT03 for example is perfect for me. I have several fused vertebrae and I can't lean onto clip on bars any longerr to race sport bikes. The MT03 and KTM Duke etc would make great race bikes in the single 4 stroke section of F3 but MNZ has effectively banned these bikes by introducing a 900mm handlebar height limitation so that 10-20 year old japanese 4 cylinder time bombs with $10-15,000 motors can continue winning.
Something like a vee twin sit up bike would also be great, a 600 or 750 Ducati Multistrada would suit me fine..........but the stupid MNZ rules forbid them because the bars are too high. The KTM Duke has just 140mm of suspension travel so it's definitely a road bike and not a trail bike. Yet it is effectively banned from racing because of whiny cry babies. The Multistrada is also a road bike and nothing else but it is banned by whiners with the same small minded rules.

The 'Formula' classes in NZ are a bloody joke. The original idea of these classes was to have a wide range of different types of bikes racing against each other.

The production classes were where the sponsors got their rocks off with limited numbers of manufacturers able to win races (read 3 or 4 jappa manufacturers, several who are major sponsors and who are frequently sucked up to).

Hey MNZ, I don't really like jappas, have you forgotten why BEARs started and why it nearly wiped jappa racing off the map for a number of years?

If you're gonna write these stupid laws, why don't you just specify brand names and be fucking done with it?

You might notice I'm pissed. Yes, I was thinking of making a return to racing after a decade away. Cruising through the regulations over the last week though, I see petty mindedness still prevails and sucking up to the sponsors rules the roost.

Where is my racing class if not a formula race where the VERY IDEA is to mix it up a lot????

oh ok im starting to see your point! I still dont like the idea of racing road bikes against bikes like the superduke etc as the diff styles is dangerous, im not whining cause i cant ride motards but rather i choose to ride road style. It does suck that the superduke etc dont seem to have a class cause they are a cool bike... Maybe they should mix them with the motards i think that would be the safest option, maybe a split start though

[slowpoke]

My whole reason for liking these bikes (looking at the original post) is that there are literally tens of thousands of the things stashed in sheds around the country. Sure a pucca GP bike is a better tool but the numbers aren't exactly overwhelming in NZ.
Even if only a small percentage of people are interested in converting them for circuit racing then that would still mean substantial numbers.
I've seen some of the GP125's struggling to sell on Trade Me and I reckon the onsale of a CRF450 or similar with the options of selling in dirt mode, road race mode or just the conversion kit alone would be much easier.

[Moss 16]

My whole reason for liking these bikes (looking at the original post) is that there are literally tens of thousands of the things stashed in sheds around the country. Sure a pucca GP bike is a better tool but the numbers aren't exactly overwhelming in NZ.
Even if only a small percentage of people are interested in converting them for circuit racing then that would still mean substantial numbers.
I've seen some of the GP125's struggling to sell on Trade Me and I reckon the onsale of a CRF450 or similar with the options of selling in dirt mode, road race mode or just the conversion kit alone would be much easier.

What are you on about? I can think of at least 5 off the top of my head that have been sold since the last round of the nationals at puke.
The bikes that you are referring to on trade me are extremely over priced
($2250 for a pre 95 is just ridiculous; a grand is about the usual price)

And as for numbers not being overwhelming, there was a total of 23 competitors over the 2008 national series, which is the same as the super bike class so why aren’t you worried about the lack of numbers in that class too?

[Tim 39]

What are you on about? I can think of at least 5 off the top of my head that have been sold since the last round of the nationals at puke.
The bikes that you are referring to on trade me are extremely over priced
($2250 for a pre 95 is just ridiculous; a grand is about the usual price)

And as for numbers not being overwhelming, there was a total of 23 competitors over the 2008 national series, which is the same as the super bike class so why aren’t you worried about the lack of numbers in that class too?

calm down Colin!
good points though, this year it was mentioned that the 125 class provided the best racing of all the classes, and there have been many 125GP bikes purchased recently

[Moss 16]

calm down Colin!
good points though, this year it was mentioned that the 125 class provided the best racing of all the classes, and there have been many 125GP bikes purchased recently

Yea I did get a little worked up didnt I, but I dont quite understand why people want to fix the 125 class when there is nothing wrong with it, yes honda has pulled out and left a hole in the market but ktm and aprilia are still making bikes that are for sale to the general public to buy.
The class we should be looking to fix is the old 250gp class, there still isnt a replacement for it and has left abit of a canyon between 125gp and 600's.

[svr]

1. Some guy was racing a `converted' CRF450 mxer with road front end and farings / motard rims etc. at Taupo in F3 on Sunday. In practice I noticed that it was pretty much the same as the trusty SV in a straight line, but I didnt see him in the races.
Funny but it looked `big' and long sitting on the grid (twice the size of a 125)?
Anyway, seems at least one guy in NZ has taken the plunge.
2. Moriwaki is building Honda CRF 250 single road racers and flogging them for 15K Aus - 125 gp ers hate these things right?
3. Any reason why you cant just put lower bars on the KTM 690 / Aprilia 450 etc(cool bikes) and go in F3?
4. When 250gp goes to 500 four stroke twins (or similar) the factories will no doubt produce road bike race replicas - something to look forward to and should breathe some life into F3 or create a new racing class.

[idleidolidyll]

1. Some guy was racing a `converted' CRF450 mxer with road front end and farings / motard rims etc. at Taupo in F3 on Sunday. In practice I noticed that it was pretty much the same as the trusty SV in a straight line, but I didnt see him in the races.
Funny but it looked `big' and long sitting on the grid (twice the size of a 125)?
Anyway, seems at least one guy in NZ has taken the plunge.
2. Moriwaki is building Honda CRF 250 single road racers and flogging them for 15K Aus - 125 gp ers hate these things right?
3. Any reason why you cant just put lower bars on the KTM 690 / Aprilia 450 etc(cool bikes) and go in F3?
4. When 250gp goes to 500 four stroke twins (or similar) the factories will no doubt produce road bike race replicas - something to look forward to and should breathe some life into F3 or create a new racing class.

You miss the point:
Why should anyone have to put lower bars on a 690 Duke to race in F3? It's a road bike and the reasons given for the rule all add up to jealousy, ignorance and petty mindedness.
Although the Duke only has 140mm suspension, it has an 860mm seat height and a high top triple clamp wth the bar clamp on top of that. To put low bars on, you'd have to use clip on which would ruin the bike.
As an older rider with fused vertebrae, why am I forced to ride in a position that is uncomfortable and possibly unsafe?

[svr]

Do you reject the idea that there are safety issues with high / wide handlebars racing closely with `normal' race bikes?

[idleidolidyll]

Do you reject the idea that there are safety issues with high / wide handlebars racing closely with `normal' race bikes?

totally

a 'normal' race bike a few years back might have been a CB1100R with tall wide bars

the only qualifications should be that they fit into the cc ratings and have the normal safety equipment

by definition, if a bike with tall wide bars is the winner; it is the best race bike

[idleidolidyll]

Do you reject the idea that there are safety issues with high / wide handlebars racing closely with `normal' race bikes?

show me statistical evidence that this is a fact and not just emotive bullshit

[svr]

Of course there isnt any - At the last PMC round on Sunday the riders were told not to slipstream (!) as the Puke fatalities had `proven' that slipstreaming was dangerous...! Right or in this case wrong, anecdotal `evidence', gut feel, experience, knee-jerks etc. will continue to set the safety agenda given an absence of proper research.
Back to high / wide bars - CB1100 bars were at the same level as GS1100s etc, motard bars are at the heads of `normal' (= conventional) bikes of today. Bike racing is inherently dangerous true, but hordes of sideways motards taking random lines after fast starts and holding up faster bikes by being so wide, feet out all over the place etc. really wasnt helping. The whole idea of `classes' is similar bikes to keep the focus on riding right?

In terms of keeping out motards because they're too fast - Any `Euro-motards' capable of the 12s at Manfield, 2s at Puke? etc, that some `Pussy' F3 riders can do on their inferior bikes?

Also, lower bars would help handling surely? - less lift at speed. Maybe you could get a special - needs disability exemption from MNZ to let you keep the high bars?

[idleidolidyll]

Of course there isnt any - At the last PMC round on Sunday the riders were told not to slipstream (!) as the Puke fatalities had `proven' that slipstreaming was dangerous...! Right or in this case wrong, anecdotal `evidence', gut feel, experience, knee-jerks etc. will continue to set the safety agenda given an absence of proper research.

I hadn't heard that one but yet another piece of emotive claptrap if true. We may as well declare ourselves 'Switzerland' right now and ban racing.

Back to high / wide bars - CB1100 bars were at the same level as GS1100s etc, motard bars are at the heads of `normal' (= conventional) bikes of today. Bike racing is inherently dangerous true, but hordes of sideways motards taking random lines after fast starts and holding up faster bikes by being so wide, feet out all over the place etc. really wasnt helping. The whole idea of `classes' is similar bikes to keep the focus on riding right?

No, the idea of classes was to put bikes of similar power in the same classes. The move to ban bikes with wide bars, offroad frames, high bars etc was made because a bunch of whiners were pissed that the class was 'being taken over' by cheap fast bikes that often pissed all over the poxy 10-20 year old 4's that predominated.

A CB1100R was not a lean over bike like the R1, Gixxer or Ducati 1098, it would have had bars at head height going around a corer compared to those modern bikes, many of which are NOT necessarily the best bikes for some of our race tracks.

In terms of keeping out motards because they're too fast - Any `Euro-motards' capable of the 12s at Manfield, 2s at Puke? etc, that some `Pussy' F3 riders can do on their inferior bikes?

2's at Puke on F3? Is that what Glen Williams, class winner, does on his 70/75HP Suzuki? 12's at Manfield?
Someone seems to have a very fast stop watch indeed!

Glen, can you confirm this? Until he does I'd have to calculate as follows:

A standard SV650 weighs 165kg 'dry'. That's about 190kg ready to race and even with a fat loss program, it'd be fair to say that 180 ready to race would be probably as good as it gets. Most 400 4's are little better.
The SV starts with 69 Japanese HP. That's probably 50 at the wheel. Spend bulk dollars on the motor or lots of time and you might get 65-70 real HP at the back wheel.

As a comparison, CBR600's 15 years ago made more power than that, were about the same weight and could only manage 1.07 or so around Puke.

Of course the surface might be better now and from what I've seen, the best F3's at Puke get around in 1.06 or 1.07; possibly a few get faster laps on occasion.

However, given that the new KTM RC4 in development with the same motor as a 690 Duke can lap most circuits within 2 seconds of a 600cc sport bike and get almost 240kph, I see what you're worried about.

Of course you do cherry pick. Motards are better on the likes of Taupo, the road circuits etc with more corners than straights and if these make up the bulk of the series; the motards would have a better than average chance.

Also, lower bars would help handling surely? - less lift at speed. Maybe you could get a special - needs disability exemption from MNZ to let you keep the high bars?

No, not necessarily. Wide bars help pull a bike down quicker and help recover from near disaster when the front tucks. Lift at speed only matters at Puke and frankly I've never seen anyone leave the ground ever.

Hang on, I feel a massive yawn coming.....................y a w n