Tax motorcycles and motor scooters off the road

**rodgerd** · 2nd December 2004, 12:54

Originally Posted by TonyB

Now that was frightening. I love the way the author puts forward his or her own opinions as 'facts'
The data for motorcycle accidents always seems to include farm bike/ ATV/ motocross accidents, which as I understand it is how the ACC managed to justify increasing the levy on bike regos.

Well, the biggest flaw is pulling in US stats. Helmets, anyone?

**TonyB** · 2nd December 2004, 12:54

Just found a report published by the Oxford Ini traffic research unit. It's in pdf form here http://www.tsu.ox.ac.uk/research/mot...nal_report.pdf, but you can veiw it here http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=cac...capacity&hl=en as html.
I looked at it expecting some reasoned conclusions about bike safety, but even here the author is allowing public opinion to sway their judgement. For instance, they make a comment about statistics backing up the general veiw that born again bikers are a problem, because statistics show that while the highest accident rate used to be in a certain age group, it has now moved to the next age group. HELLO! The number of young people taking up riding is reducing, therefore motorcyclists have an 'aging population', therefore as time moves on, the group with the highest accident rate (because there are more of them) will get older and older.

They do make a comment about other road users causing the bulk of fatalities though. Surely education of non bikers is the simplest answer?

As far as taxing bikes into oblivion goes. HA! How much does a set of tyres cost and how long do they last? Most bikers are used to a high price of ownership. How many people still smoke, despite being taxed heavily? Motorcycling is addictive, it ain't that easy to just 'give it up'.

**rodgerd** · 2nd December 2004, 12:55

Originally Posted by BM-GS

Any chance of that sort of coincidence happening in the Antipodes? Maybe we could suggest that EVERBODY should drive a Korean car and scrap all the WRXs, V8s and 4x4s? Not to mention bicycles. Or possibly the answer could be better driver training with specifically bike-related, hazard awareness segments?

An Aussie politician would never suggest action against V8s, methinks.

**Hitcher** · 2nd December 2004, 13:01

Originally Posted by TonyB

I looked at it expecting some reasoned conclusions about bike safety, but even here the author is allowing public opinion to sway their judgement. For instance, they make a comment about statistics backing up the general veiw that born again bikers are a problem, because statistics show that while the highest accident rate used to be in a certain age group, it has now moved to the next age group. HELLO! The number of young people taking up riding is reducing, therefore motorcyclists have an 'aging population', therefore as time moves on, the group with the highest accident rate (because there are more of them) will get older and older.

Some people just don't "get" statistics. As demonstrated by the fact that half of the population has below-average intelligence...

**TonyB** · 2nd December 2004, 13:59

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Some people just don't "get" statistics. As demonstrated by the fact that half of the population has below-average intelligence...

Say that to a politician and they'll have a fit, then they'll advocate that millions more must be spent on educating the general public. Of course, once it's done he'll no doubt be totally bewildered when statistics show that half of the population still has below-average intelligence. Wonder how long it would take him to realise that it can't be any other way?

**Blakamin** · 2nd December 2004, 16:04

Originally Posted by Coldkiwi

Allow me! (courtesy of Denill via the 'ultimate solution' thread)
Article published in Silver Bullet
Email the Editor of the Australian Financial Review -numpties who published the article written by Alan Mitchell. I've just sent my thoughts to them reminding them of the public embarrasement that the NBR suffered after involvement with the Dick Hubbard smear campaign

Thank You!!!!!!

Now, as an Australian, he will feel my wrath... (he's probably a pom anyway!)

**Blakamin** · 2nd December 2004, 16:07

Originally Posted by rodgerd

An Aussie politician would never suggest action against V8s, methinks.

It happened in 1971!
hence no XU-2
no real XA-GT
no V8 cortinas
and it could happen again!
try a google (i havent coz its a fact I've lived with) on "supercar scare 1971 australia"

[edit] just googled that

**Yokai** · 2nd December 2004, 16:19

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Some people just don't "get" statistics.

Stats ... Heh. I notice that there was no comparative stat here

Numbers I would like to see:

Total Bike Accidents - (Bike vs Car)
Bike vs Bike
Car vs Car
Total Car - (Bike vs Car)

expressed as percentages of total number of cars and total number of bikes.

Really steams me that people don't "do the math" ...

**Drunken Monkey** · 2nd December 2004, 20:54

Originally Posted by kerryg

I wonder if there are any statistics available regarding motorcycle accident rates in the USA. They don't have our cc restrictions for learners so far as I know (they can go straight to a 600cc I think or even bigger). It would be interesting to know whether they have greatly different accident rates among learner riders than here...I would guess that there's bugger all difference but coud be wrong of course

Summary of 'The Hurt Report'

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html

**TonyB** · 3rd December 2004, 07:57

Originally Posted by Yokai

Really steams me that people don't "do the math" ...

I don't think buerocrats ever do the math- it's far easier to jump to conclusions, prey on the misconceptions of the general public, and then slap on some nice big taxes and fines to get some more revenue.

**rodgerd** · 3rd December 2004, 08:01

Originally Posted by Yokai

Stats ... Heh. I notice that there was no comparative stat here

Numbers I would like to see:

Total Bike Accidents - (Bike vs Car)
Bike vs Bike
Car vs Car
Total Car - (Bike vs Car)

expressed as percentages of total number of cars and total number of bikes.

Really steams me that people don't "do the math" ...

Have a look at the LTSA thread for the numbers for New Zealand. They aren't too flattering on riders, since the number of single vehical, rider at fault fatalitites alone is out of line with the number of bikes on the road.

**TonyB** · 3rd December 2004, 10:17

2. Approximately one-fourth of these motorcycle accidents were single vehicle accidents involving the motorcycle colliding with the roadway or some fixed object in the environment.

3. Vehicle failure accounted for less than 3% of these motorcycle accidents, and most of those were single vehicle accidents where control was lost due to a puncture flat.

4. In single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slideout and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

5. Roadway defects (pavement ridges, potholes, etc.) were the accident cause in 2% of the accidents; animal involvement was 1% of the accidents.

66% for rider error + 3% for vehicle failure + 2% for road defects + 1% for animals = 70% So if I'm not missing something, there's 30% missing. What happens, do the bikes just magicaly crash all by themselves? Road defects would be much higher than 2%

**Yokai** · 3rd December 2004, 11:04

Originally Posted by TonyB

66% for rider error + 3% for vehicle failure + 2% for road defects + 1% for animals = 70% So if I'm not missing something, there's 30% missing. What happens, do the bikes just magicaly crash all by themselves? Road defects would be much higher than 2%

Define road defect? Diesel spillage? Not a road defect, not a vehicl failure, not animal ....

All of this equates to 25% of motorcycle accidents

So ...
0.75% total MC Accidents were vehicle failure (mostly flats)
16.5% total MC Accidents were rider error
0.5% total MC Accidents were road defects
0.25% total MC Accidents were animal involved
7.5% total MC Accidents were unaccounted for.
49.5% total MC Accidents were caused by the driver of the other vehicle
24.5% total MC Accidents were multi vehicle Motorcyclist "at-fault".

I've read what the other stats are for cars and unless I am much mistaken I cannot find on LTSA Car'n'Van vs Bike. Nor can I find the nice breakdown of Bike stats....

I'm actually gonna do some research on this to try and get:

1 - Single Vehicle accident breakdowns for Bike and Car
2 - Multiple Vehicle accident breakdowns for Car vs Bike

But *shrug* - I like my bike!

NOTE: 10. Intersections are the most likely place for the motorcycle accident, with the other vehicle violating the motorcycle right-of-way, and often violating traffic controls.

**TonyB** · 3rd December 2004, 11:22

Saw a beaut diesel spill a while back. On every left hand bend from Diamond Harbour to Lyttleton there was so much diesel you could actually smell it. The spill took up about a third of the lane most of the way round each corner. I was heading to Lyttleton from Gebbies pass, so I first came across it on an uphill left hander at around 100k's, I could smell it before I saw it. After dithering for a bit, I rode to the Lyttleton police station to let them know- they already knew (but they thought it was confined to Diamond Harbour) and had a road crew going to Diamond Harbour. When I tried to explain how serious it was the officer didn't seem too bothered. Infact from what he said I got the impression he thought it would be a great way to teach a few bikers a lesson.